9mm range

[KMAX]

What would be considered the maximum lethal range of 9mm out of a 16 inch barreled semi-auto carbine? What would be the velocity at that range?

[stagpanther]

What would be considered the maximum lethal range of 9mm out of a 16 inch barreled semi-auto carbine? What would be the velocity at that range?

I have a 16" 9mm blowback AR I made and love it and have shot LOTS of different ammo and handloads through it, and my answer is that there is so much variation between bullet weights and charges used it's impossible to give a straight answer to that. I would say my hottest P++ loads would be quite lethal to 50 yards; maybe a bit more, but ballistically the 9mm projectile loses energy fast. I've even whipped up some very high velocity 9mm loads using ultralight bullets though they tend to destabilize a bit.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by KMAX

What would be considered the maximum lethal range of 9mm out of a 16 inch barreled semi-auto carbine? What would be the velocity at that range?

Lethal for what? Self defense? Hunting up to deer size game?

[KMAX]

I suppose I should have stated for home defense. I would never consider using 9mm to hunt deer except possibly in a post-apocalyptic world. My question stemmed from the thought that I might accidentally miss my intended target.

[hammie]

The Lyman 50th ed manual has reloading data for the 9x19mm in a 16.25 inch barreled rifle. Surprisingly, (or not so surprisingly) there was little difference in velocities from a rifle versus a handgun. Using the ballistic co-efficients for a 115 and 125 grain, 9mm bullet, and assuming muzzle velocities of 1300 ft/sec and 1250 ft/sec, respectively, you can make these approximations.

The trajectory is about the same for either bullet. For a 50 yard zero: a 2 inch drop at 75 yards, -6 inch @100 yards, -20 inch @ 150 yards, and -44 inch @ 200 yards.

Velocities for the 115 grain and 125 grain respectively, are 1050 and 1000 ft/sec @100 yards, 970 and 930 ft/sec @ 150 yards, and 910 and 880 ft/sec @ 200 yards.

If you consider that a 38 special, 158 grain bullet leaves the muzzle at 850 ft/sec, then it becomes apparent that the 9x19mm can be lethal to 200 yards and beyond.

[jmr40]

I recently bought one of the S&W FPC carbines in 9mm

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/fpc

I'm shooting Winchester 147 gr loads in it. They should be getting 1000 fps from a handgun. I've not chronographed them, but I should be doing a little better from a 16" barrel.

I don't know about energy, but I'm getting 2" groups at 100 yards with a dot sight. It might not put a man down instantly, but I'd use it to 100 if I had to shoot that far.

I bought it to get a bit better accuracy at 25-50 yards than I can do with a handgun. I'm actually a bit surprised at that kind of accuracy at 100.

[hammie]

@JMR40: Thanks for the link. I've been considering a Henry Homesteader, but I'll take a look at the Smith & Wesson. I wasn't aware of Smith pistol carbine.

It's surprising the accuracy you can get with a 9x19mm with a little practice...even with a handgun. In the 60's, when 9mm military surplus was selling for 3$ per hundred, we would sit on a railroad trestle and plink at targets in a plowed field with Browning Hi-Powers. One of the brownings had the tangent, or ladder rear sight, and once you got the elevation right by observing the puff of dust in the field, it became pretty easy to hit a man sized target out to two or three hundred yards.

[KMAX]

@JMR40 This is the specific gun that I happen to be using and I agree. I wanted something more for the 50-75 yard range but was impressed with the 100 yard accuracy.

[rc]

Plenty of small game has fallen to the 22 LR lobbed out to 150 yards or farther. I've taken small game cleanly out to 100 yards with a reasonable degree of accuracy. After that lethal hits on small game are not certain enough for my comfort level. I'm sure a 22 LR would be lethal well past 200 yards if a person was hit in the head. A 9mm would retain much more energy much father than that. The problem is not the lethal range as much as the effective range. Depending on the gun you might get sub 5 inch groups at 100 yards from a 9mm carbine. You might be able to make solid hits out to 200 yards but I doubt you could reliably hit at 300 yards due to the rainbow trajectory of a bullet that drops over 110 inches by that point will be moving along well under 1000 fps.
https://www.buffalobore.com/images/eb_24a_1500fps.png

[Shadow9mm]

Iraqveteran8888 did a video on this about 9yrs ago. I believe they shot out to around 440yds and got pass throughs on a ballistic gel torso.

Here is part 1 of the series. https://youtu.be/_wXFf34bB34?si=ZWJnOSJVLKsYkSYo

They did a part 2 with hollow points and i believe even got some expansion at 440yds.
https://youtu.be/ZM6BOjsFx4M?si=chJGlWmspOa1pfLc

[Jim Watson]

The problem is not the lethal range as much as the effective range.

That was my first thought. A 9mm P bullet will have killing power way beyond its effective trajectory and accuracy. The "Red Nine" Mauser's sight was only graduated to 500 meters instead of the 1000 of the 7.63.

[JimCunn]

At a guess, possibly up to 2 to 4 miles if fired at an elevation angle of 39° for maximum range.
Flight time could be on the very loose order of 30 to 38 seconds.

[JohnKSa]

I agree. It's probably potentially lethal out to the limit of its trajectory as long as it doesn't hit something or start tumbling.

[tangolima]

Little as 12ft-lb of energy is lethal. Imagine firing from high altitude such as high mountain or an aircraft. Literally sky is the limit.

That's why it is crucial to have backstop. I've seen videos showing expert hunters taking game on ridge line without backstop. They know what they are doing?

-TL



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[44 AMP]

On boxes of .22s it says "dangerous over a mile" (or more), the 9mm, and essentially every other bullet will be also.

Maximum effective range is another matter, and depends on how good you are, and what effect you are hoping to achieve.

Shooting in self defense at long range is not easily supported by our legal system. A bullet traveling long range, because you missed, and you being responsible for any and all damage that bullet causes, is supported by our legal system, and can cost you a LOT!.

[rc]

I shoot on hilly and flat terrain. The problem with bullets is they like to bounce depending on the hardness of the terrain and the angles. 22s in particular like to skip and bounce if the start tumbling on contact with hard ground. If you shoot down on a flat piece of land from a high angle, generally the bullet will stop in the dirt regardless of soil compaction but if you shoot the same land at a shallow angle, it will often skip a bit unless the dirt is tilled. I've shot at a shallow angle on a freshly disked field where I could see for several hundred yards and saw my 22 bullets make several splashes before running out of steam way far on the other side of the field. It's kinda like skipping rocks on a pond when you shoot at a shallow angle on compacted dirt. One of the blessings of the 17s is the bullets are so fast and frangible they tend to break up but they can also skip and do damage if they hit the dirt at a shallow angle.

[stagpanther]

Ive been able to get almost 2000 fps and well over 700 ftlbs energy at the muzzle using 90 gr interceptors out of my 16" barrel in my handloads. I would not use them in a handgun.

[44caliberkid]

The OP said home defense, but as 44AMP pointed out, you aren’t going to be taking 200 yard shots and claiming home defense. So I’m wondering if the posters concern is over penetration, like hitting the neighbors house and someone inside, or penetrating interior walls and hitting a family member?

[Pumpkin]

If over penetration is a big concern then how about a good old pump 12 with some high brass #4 shot or maybe #4 Buck?
I’m not sure a 9mm pistol, much less a carbine will give you what you want if stray bullets are such a concern.
God forbid that day comes for me but I know this much, over penetration from my 9mm won’t be what’s on my mind.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by 44caliberkid

The OP said home defense, but as 44AMP pointed out, you aren’t going to be taking 200 yard shots and claiming home defense. So I’m wondering if the posters concern is over penetration, like hitting the neighbors house and someone inside, or penetrating interior walls and hitting a family member?

While unlikely, it is possible that a person or house could be engaged by a threat with a rifle from well beyond 200yds. Again, very unlikely, but not impossible.

[bamaranger]

The OP could have likely used a different term other than lethal. He goes on in later posts regards missing his target in home defense. Which then brings up the issue of penetrative qualities of the 9mm cartridge and the issues of "range".

Concerning lethal, I would think a 9mm projectile could be lethal way out there. If stable and nose first, I would not be surprised a 9mm FMJ could inflict a penetrating, potentially lethal wound exceeding 1000 yds. I rewatched the video where the host took a 9mm carbine to 400 yds, and FMJ ammo fully penetrated 9" of more of a gel torso. The same ammo punched thru a 1/2" plywood target backer AND the 2x4 supporting it. It does not take much imagination to realize what that bullet could do against a human skull/temple, soft tissue around the neck and spine, the eye socket or slipping between the ribs of the chest.

The 9mm FMJ bullet has always been recognized as a good penetrator. I recall reading an account written by a white hunter in Africa conducting elephant culling. After the shooting with the heavy rifles, the fellow would pop the down giants with a round or two of 9mm FMJ at point blank to insure the beast(s) were done. If a 9mm will go into an elephants brain.........

There is also much video of 9mm ammo penetrating pseudo interior and exterior house walls of wood construction and exiting with lots of energy. Such bullets are likely somewhat deformed, unstable and would not have the same carry as one undisturbed, but still could be plenty dangerous. I would have not a clue as to how far such could be lethal and it would likely vary shot to shot.

Lets not confuse lethal range with effective range and maximum range. Effective range is how far one can hit accurately. In the video in ideal circumstances, the host was getting consistent hits on torso sized targets fairly easily at 400 yds with a 9mm carbine. A handgun is much harder to shoot well at that distance, I suspect 100 yds is the limit for those really skilled (bamaboy can ring a C-12 42" popper with a Glock consistently at
100.....young eyes) and half that or less for many of us.

Max range is how far a round will carry when fired at the ideal angle. Internet search states 2300-2500 yds

[stagpanther]

I have tried some long range shooting with 9mm--I found effectiveness to be dependent on a lot things; but all things being equal (which according to 44 amp they never are ) it tends to decelerate to a point that 1) it acquires a rainbow trajectory 2) it also destabilizes enough that it will negatively affect consistency. Can it hit and impact something with enough force to kill it at long distance? sure. Would I rely on it for that? Not unless I didn't have anything better. 75 yards in on my property, using my higher power loads, I would be much more confident stopping even a big threat with good aim and ammo. That's all I need.

[bamaranger]

The US Army claims the "effective" range of the 9mm handgun is 50-55M, I read different things on the net and don't have a field manual.
I read the effective range of the MP5 subgun (and possibly the Uzi) is considered 200M. Bamaboy has a Ruger 9mm carbine, second gen model, with a dot on it, and a 10" steel plate at 100y is simple to hit, even off hand. We've not tried it, but a 42" popper would likely be easily done at 200y by holding on the head and dropping them into the 12" center section.

The pistol caliber carbines are popular. They are relatively cheap to shoot in 9mm, a hoot plinking, and would be fun shooting at running jackrabbits if we had them in Alabama. A good argument can be made for them in HD for the tender shooter .

I can see their attraction, though the only one I own is in 10mm, not cheap to shoot, and not particularly accurate.

[Jim Watson]

By JBM, a 115 gr 9mm FMJ at 1600 fps from a carbine is still doing 718 fps at 500 yards. Of course the "drop" is enormous, but if you launch one at high elevation, it is going to be deadly several blocks away.

[stagpanther]

The pistol caliber carbines are popular. They are relatively cheap to shoot in 9mm, a hoot plinking, and would be fun shooting at running jackrabbits if we had them in Alabama. A good argument can be made for them in HD for the tender shooter

I totally agree that a 9mm carbine is pretty much at the top of the heap for semi-auto carbines for most fun/value for the bang coefficient. Sorta like an AK, getting your optics dialed in for effective close-in use and then targeting waaaaay out there is going to have to take into account the zeroed distances and hold-over. Also like an AK, I've found getting a consistent grouping at around 1 to 1.5 MOA at 100 yds is very challenging with your typical 9mm projectile. With my handloads I would be quite confident engaging a large 2 legged predator or medium sized game on my property out to 75 yards if I had to.