Who Needs A Palestinian State?

[CMichael]

Almost every major country is a dictatorship. They fund terrorists out to destroy the US and the rest of western civilization. There are few exceptions, such as Turkey and Morocco.

Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, all fund and give shelter to our enemies.

I see nothing advantages for the US of another Arab country being formed right next to Israel. Who needs a brand new enemy state being created?

Those who shout the most for the Palestinian state really want that state to be composed of all of Israel. I see nothing to gain in helping reach this goal.

About 60% of Jordan is already made up of Palestinians. Plus the West Bank was part of Jordan. Jordan lost the West Bank. Therefore, those who wish to get back to their state can simply relocate.

The whole Palestinian state issue is just being used as an attack against Israel. I doubt most of the arab countries could give $0.2 for their arab brethern. If they truely did they would invite them to their countries.

I see absolutely nothing positive to be gained for the US if there was a new Palestinian aside alongside Israel. It would be just another terrorism recruiting and training ground.

Michael

[Dave B]

Almost every major country is a dictatorship. They fund terrorists out to destroy the US and the rest of western civilization. There are few exceptions, such as Turkey and Morocco.

The UK, France, Germany, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Japan, The USA, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Portugal, Greece, South Africa...

Where does stuff like this come from?

Anyway, we should kill 'em all!

db

[Zander]

"Where does stuff like this come from?" -- Dave B

I'm afraid you missed his point.

And he is correct; giving Arabs a homeland called 'Palestine' with the sovereignty it entails would be a security nightmare.

If countries such as Jordan [see first point above] want to create the concrete from the theoretical, let them provide the land and deal with millions of "refugees" themselves.

But that won't happen, just as "Palestinian" settlements won't be called anything but refugee camps...because that's what the "leaders" want them called for political purposes.

[CMichael]

I'm sorry. I made a boo boo. I meant every ***arab*** country

[CMichael]

From the WSJ today

BY JAMES TARANTO
Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:02 p.m. EDT

Those Jewish Kids Can Be Such Terrors
A pox on both their houses! proclaims Ted Turner. The CNN founder tells Britain's Guardian that the Palestinians are terrorists, but so are the Israelis:


"The Palestinians are fighting with human suicide bombers, that's all they have. The Israelis . . . they've got one of the most powerful military machines in the world. The Palestinians have nothing. So who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides are involved in terrorism."


This morning, as CNN reports, a bunch of Jewish kids in Jerusalem were terrorizing the Palestinians by riding a bus to school. The Palestinians terrorized them right back, in part of what Reuters calls a "Palestinian uprising." A Hamas terrorist, identified by the Jerusalem Post as the delightfully named Mohammad al Ghoul, uprose onto the bus wearing a suicide bomb--hey, it's all they have, whaddya expect?--and blew himself up, killing 19 people, among them "several youths."
"The driver was dead at the wheel of what had become a ghost bus, his hands still in a steering position as an ambulance worker felt for a pulse and shook his head sadly," Reuters reports. Shalom Sabag, who was driving in front of the bus, describes the scene:


"I stopped the car and ran to the bus. I was the first person to get on the bus and take people off," Sabag told Reuters.
"The bodies were piled up near the door of the bus on the right side. He didn't wait to blow up--he blew up straight away. I took off the bodies of a two girls and a man.
"There was one girl I cannot forget. She had a long braid down her back and she lay on her stomach. There was a man with his hand wounded but every time we touched him, he screamed."


The Jerusalem Post notes that Ghoul was a student at al Najah University in Nablus. Back in September, we noted that al Najah had set up an exhibition celebrating the previous month's mass murder at a Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem. And it isn't only collegians who are celebrating the mass murder of Jews; the Toronto Star reports that " 'martyr' necklaces" are all the rage among Palestinian teens. "I used to have plenty of Pokémons--my school bag was half full of them," 14-year-old Saleh Attiti tells the Star. "I threw them all away. They're not important now. The pictures of martyrs are important. They're our idols." Ted Turner could probably make an argument that Jewish teenagers are worse, what with their terroristic bus-riding and pizza-eating, but still, this is pretty disturbing.
We hope President Bush is reading this column, because we know how to stop these suicide attacks. All you have to do is give the Palestinians their own country. Really, it's that simple!
Thanks to Turner, we know that the only reason Palestinians use suicide bombers is because "that's all they have." If they get their own state, they'll have a lot more, as William Safire notes:


1. Statehood, even if qualified as provisional or interim, confers a degree of sovereignty. That means control of borders, the ability to make treaties, and to import arms from Iraq and by sea from Iran.
2. Partial statehood would give Arafat control of an airport. A plane loaded with fuel or explosives could hit a major Tel Aviv building within three minutes, too quickly for Israeli jets to scramble. Ritual condemnation would follow.
3. Any form of statehood would limit Israel's ability to search out bomb factories and arrest terrorist leaders. What is now a tolerable sweep into disputed territory would be denounced in the U.N. as invasion pure and simple. That would trigger European economic boycotts and draw Arab allies into a wider war.


With capabilities like these at their disposal, there would be no need for Palestinians to resort to suicide bombings.
Consider, too, the great tradition of Arab statecraft. Twenty-one Arab states already exist, including such paragons of peace, prosperity and pluralism as Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Syria. Sure, the Middle East has some problems, but are there any that couldn't be solved by the creation of a 22nd Arab state? And don't forget, the new Palestine would be headed by a Nobel Peace Prize winner!
It all seems so obvious when you stop to think about it. We're surprised no one else has come up with the idea.

OpinionJournal - Best of the Web Today

[gorlitsa]

This morning, as CNN reports, a bunch of Jewish kids in Jerusalem were terrorizing the Palestinians by riding a bus to school.

WHAT? Children are now terrorists because they get a bus to ride on? I'm not sure if I should be laughing or screaming....

On a side note, why does any of this really concern us? If the Palestinians begin attacking us, then we can retaliate, but for now I don't see how this is our problem.

[Ben Swenson]

WHAT? Children are now terrorists because they get a bus to ride on? I'm not sure if I should be laughing or screaming

Sarcasm.

why does any of this really concern us? If the Palestinians begin attacking us, then we can retaliate, but for now I don't see how this is our problem.

Israel is one of our only allies in the Middle east, and therefore we feel the need to help them out. The problem is, we end up getting in their way more often than not.
Personally, though, I agree ... it's not our business, let them deal with it.

[Christopher II]

Israel is one of our only allies in the Middle east...

Ehh. The Israeli gov't has their own game going, and it doesn't necessarly sync up with ours. They see us as less an ally, and more a money pipe to suck on. Of course, having pumped so much money into their gov't over the years, the USG thinks that they should have some say in how the Israelis conduct their business...

The USG really should pull its (our!) cash out of the Middle East. Foreign entanglements are stupid, no matter the circumstances.

- Chris

[Ben Swenson]

Foreign entanglements are stupid, no matter the circumstances.

And there are absolutely no absolutes, right?

Careful with those broad sweeping statements.

[Christopher II]

Of course not, there are lots of absolutes. Gravity, pi, the forward progress of time, the infinite stupidity of politicians... I could go on.

But to make you feel better, I'll rephrase. "Most, if not all, foreign entanglements are stupid, and I cannot for the life of me imagine a benefit, personal of collective, which can be derived from one." Much better, eh?

- Chris

[foghornl]

A quote from Little Teddy Turner:

A pox on both their houses! proclaims Ted Turner. The CNN founder tells Britain's Guardian that the Palestinians are terrorists, but so are the Israelis

I wrote off Teddy a long time ago as a 100% jackazz. Filty rich, but still a jackazz. And who is Miseries Teddy Turner? ? ? ? Hanoi Jane Fonda.

A well-matched pair of Communists

[CMichael]

I don't think it's wise to live as isolationists in this world today.

The US has gotten a lot of benefits from having Israel as an ally.

1) it was Israel that helped the US locate the Achille Lauro so Americans could be rescused. It wasn't Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc.

2) It was Israel that managed to capture a Mig 21 and show it to the US techies as a time when US planes were being shot down left and right

3) We are now in a war against terrorism where the US had very little human intelligence. This necessary intelligence now is not coming from Iran

4) The US uses Israel for military bases and joint exercises

5) American weapons have a chance to be tested in true battle conditions and Israel gives the US intelligence about enemy weapons

I can't think of a better foreign investment the US can make than helping Israel which helps the US.

I think the US gets in the way too often.

When Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981 the US joined in condemning Israel. Would have happened in the Gulf War if Israel didn't do this?

Michael

[Master Blaster]

We also give 3 billion a year to Egypt, But hey they got the pyramids right!!!

We spent 9 billion over 10 years on the saudis building them a great airfield and the best radar early warning system there is.
The Saudis are such good friends of ours that we are going to give them the base as a present to thank them for the 19 pilots they sent us on Sept 11.

The Kuwaitis well we know what we did for them back in 1991, just cause they love us and we love them.

We now love Qatar, home of Al Jazera, and our newest early warning radar command center and airbase. This one will replace the one we are giving the Saudis cause they dont want us to play in their sandbox anymore, so as not to piss off the fundamentalists whose rights they respect so much.

Now that your home for the summer you ought to wake up. we need the Arabs so you can keep drivin that big SUV to the range.
Oil and all you know.

Yeah who needs Isreal? The only democracy in the middle east.
The only country in the whole area we can really count on when the chips are down.

I know why dont we just give Alqada The whole state of New York and they and their friends the Palestinians and the Arabs can have a new state right here in the USofA. After All they are just as deserving of a state as the Palestinians under Arafat.
They did blow up alot of innocent people just like the Palestinians.

I'm surprised our friends in Europe have not suggested this already to keep the peace, since they buy alot more oil from the Arabs than we do.

Hell if they blow up something really big we could give them Colorado too.

[Christopher II]

CMike -

None of the supposed 'benefits' you mention are worth nine billion dollars of American tax money. I'm all about maintaining a cordial diplomatic and economic relationship with Israel, but the money pipe needs to get turned off. I do not limit my opinion on this to Israel, I'm opposed to ALL foreign aid. If you want to send money to the Middle East, be my guest. Don't ask me to.

- Chris

[Mike in VA]

Simple, we need a Palestinian state so Isreal can have someone to declare war on.

[Russ Howard]

Why does it seem like most of those who want to shut off foreign aid seem to always emphasize or want to start with Israel? Why not shut off all the other spigots first and END with Israel?

Israel used to be a model for how to deal with terrorists, but they got sucked into an unrealistic world view that thinks peace can be bought from midieval Islamic bigots. And they got sucked into retaliation mode, rather than dealing with the problem decisively. Thus they've made it easy for the lazy and/or racist "moral equivalency" crowd to equate unavoidable collateral damage during retaliation against terrorists with racist Islamist terror against Jewish civilians. Now, to top it off, Israel's building its own Maginot wall.

Israel needs to return to the kind of spirit it had in 1967.

One thing I'd like to see them do is deport every West Bank and Gaza resident who supports terrorism in any way. Even verbal support. Some scumbag gets on TV and praises a suicide bomber, next day they're on a raft in the middle of the Mediterranean. Even if it's the bomber's mother.

Why should we be concerned about Islamic terror against Israel? Because it's being used to keep us from fighting the war against Islamist terrorists; in particular, it's being used to keep us from overthrowing Saddam.

Palestinian suicide terrorism increased dramatically after 9/11. The point was to take advantage of our make-believe internationalist nonsense that we can't deal with Saddam as long as the middle east is in turmoil. Of course, that's totally untrue, but you can't tell that to the kind of PC idiots who'd rather strip search 85-year-old native-born grandmothers than (horrors!) profile likely terrorists and arm pilots.

Make no mistake, Arafat and most Palestinians are exploiting 9/11 to get their way, just as they danced in the street to celebrate it. They know as long as we stupidly cling to the PC belief that we can't proceed against Iraq without a "coalition", nor as long as the middle east is in turmoil, they can jack up the terror and we'll reward them by forcing phony "peace deals" down Israel's throat. So it's largely our own leaders' stupidity that's causing the suicide terrorism in Israel.

Saddam and the Saudis are well aware of this stupidity, which is why they increased the commission to the families of suicide terrorists.

We need to recognize and deal with our own problem with midieval Islamist terrorist bigots and let the Israelis deal with their problem with midieval Islamist terrorist bigots.

[Zander]

The USG really should pull its (our!) cash out of the Middle East.

Fine...let's start with the tens of millions of our tax dollars sent to Yassir Arafat and the rest of his baby-killing comrades each and every year.

How's that?

[B9mmHP]

It`s kinda strange that the Palestinian people are trying to kill there own brothers, and the Arabs are helping them do so. None of the Arab states wants anything to do with with the Palestinians other than to encourage then to kill the Jews, once that is done the Palestinian people will be next.

I read something on the internet about 1yr ago that a genetic (sp) test was made and the Palestinians and Jews were almost identical (brothers). Never seen anything since that report. It must have been a NO NO for the powers to have such a thing to reported world wide it might have caused someone to think, what`s wrong here. So if the Palestinians think the can win anything they are wrong.

Don`t ask me where I seen this report because I dont remember. Maybe some one here can find it, because I am computer Dumb.

Just my .02. Can you say Brain Washing.

[Libertarian]

We also give 3 billion a year to Egypt, But hey they got the pyramids right!!!

They also have the Suz canal whih shortens transit time from the Indian Ocean to the North Atlantic by over a week. They also give us a balance against Israel and several bases.

However, we should dump our foriegn involvements and only venture forth in defense of the US. We have too much need here in the homeland to spend money outside.

[Skorzeny]

In my view, this is something of a paradox at this point.

In the first place, I do not believe that Israel can hand out an independent state to the Palestinians today and expect no more attacks tomorrow. If Israel gives up now, the radicals among the Palestinians will see it as a victory for their method of war and continue to use the new state as the base for further attacks on Israel in an insane and fantastical attempt to "get it all back."

On the other hand, it is foolish for Israel to think that it can simply punish the Palestinian population into submission. The latter has lost it all and see little else to lose, but everything to gain. Further Israeli entanglements in the Occupied Territories are bound to turn them into a never-ending nightmarish quagmire and continue to suck in more Israeli resources. What is more, such entanglements where soldiers play policemen against a native population are bound to corrode the Israeli military and its society at large in the long term (before the "Intifada II," a fairly knowledgeable defense analyst estimated that roughly 75% of Israeli reserves were not showing up for training or duty, particularly occupation duty, at some point).

Then what is the solution? I don't know. Some have suggested that an international force take over the Occupied Territories and attempt to create a "normal" society until a formal independence can be established. Quite frankly, I don't know if that's the right solution. The only thing I can say is that the status quo is not working out - things have been getting bad to worse - with more Palestinian attacks on Israelis and now the proposed Israeli re-occupation of some Palestinian autonomous areas.

It's all very sad...

Skorzeny

[Christopher II]

Russ -

I don't particularly like your implication, but I'll ignore that for now.

Zander has (for once) made a good point here. Does it really make sense for the USG to be shoveling money at both sides of a major regional conflict that will probably erupt into a full-scale shooting war? While at the same time, the USG has an undeclared war going on in one country and is prepping for another? One might thing that Washington has a vested interest in keeping that region unstable...

What was that old saying? "War is the health of the State?" I guess that undeclared wars are the healthiest of all...


Back to the point.

The USG really should pull its (our!) cash out of the Middle East.

I'd say that my own words were pretty clear. Of course, I could (and I do) make the same case for any nation in the world. We pour money into the bottomless pit of Russia, we send anti-drug cash to South America, we finance loans and bailouts in Africa, and we get exactly squat. Why in the hell is our tax money being squandered this way?

If some individual wants to send money to Israel, the PA, Mexico, Russia, or the freakin' Emerald City, let him put his own cash in an envelope and send it off. That is my point.

- Chris

[CMichael]

House Majority Whip Tom DeLay
Washington, DC
June 18, 2002


During these critical days, all of us who support Israel and love freedom need to redouble our efforts.

We need to fully and adequately convey to the American people exactly why Israel cannot possibly find peace or achieve security by rewarding aggression with weakness and concessions.

On the morning of September 11 every American realized that the war against terrorism was now the defining mission for our generation.

Americans suffered through the types of brutal homicide attacks that have become a familiar pattern in Israel.

On the scales of morality, all terrorism is equal. It's evil when a teenage girl is killed walking to dinner in Tel Aviv. It's evil when thousands die in the Trade Center.

The tactic of harming civilians to achieve political objectives is always wrong and we must never lend legitimacy to terror by negotiating with terrorists.

There's no comparison between a democracy practicing self-defense and homicide bombers.

Ted Turner has been wrong about a lot of things before, but his twisted attempt to justify terrorism against Israel by establishing moral equivalence descends to a new depth of depravity.

Turner's sick and shallow thoughts on the Middle East are the pathetic rant of a man with a defective moral compass.

When Israel fights back against the group that killed 19 people this morning it will be self-defense. In less than two years, terrorists have committed 70 homicide bombings in Israel. Our friends in Israel must be allowed to defend themselves.

Average Americans understand what's happening and it explains their strong support for the President's war against terror. America awoke to the reality that terrorism must be confronted and terrorists eliminated.

The similarity between attacks against Israel and Sept. 11 lights a guiding principle: Terrorists target freedom and we cannot pave a safe passage to peace with the bricks of reckless appeasement.

Every free and democratic government should begin by acknowledging that terrorism directed against one democracy is at bottom an attack upon freedom itself.

That's why all of us who worry about Israel's security can draw confidence from the President's recent comments -- especially his remarks following his meeting with Prime Minister Sharon last week.

President Bush stresses six critical points:


He reiterated Israel's right to self-defense and the need to root out terrorist organizations.

He recognized that Israel can't possibly negotiate a political settlement with the current Palestinian leadership structure.

He acknowledged that a new Palestinian Authority must replace corruption with fundamental reforms before it can be a legitimate partner for peace.

He understands that an end to terrorism is a prerequisite for a resolution of the political issues between Israel and the Palestinians.

He stated that the absence of a moderate Palestinian leadership was denying hope and confidence to both the people of Israel and Palestinians.

And he agrees that there's no point in laying out timelines on Palestinian statehood or convening a summit until you have a responsible Palestinian leadership that has proven itself by dropping terrorism and suppressing terrorist groups.
The President's straightforward comments flowed from direct conversations with Prime Minister Sharon and they reveal his true instincts and guiding principles.

The President spoke with a clarity and directness that didn't require and wasn't improved by so-called "clarifications."

He said that the United States doesn't believe Israel should be pressured to negotiate with Arafat because Arafat can't be trusted.

The President understands that security must come first. There's no point in discussing complicated issues before the violence and homicide bombings stop.

To expect the people of Israel to negotiate with groups that are systematically murdering their fellow citizens would be pointless and reckless.

No search for peace will succeed without a Palestinian leadership that is willing to genuinely renounce violence. They must work to stop those who would murder civilians.

George W. Bush is a steady ally for the State of Israel. And at the White House today, all of you must reinforce that the President's bold division between freedom and terror is the key to victory.

Average Americans understand what's happening in broad terms. But we all need to do more to fully explain the treachery behind Arafat's Palestinian Authority and some of the other hostile Middle Eastern regimes.

They claim to be our allies but spew calculated evil propaganda through their state-controlled media.

We need to get out the facts. This raw hatred needs to be documented, analyzed, and explained to the American people. If we rely on the media to tell this story, it will go untold.

America and Israel are united by our reverence for democracy and our unconditional opposition to terror.

We understand that the groups committed to the State of Israel's destruction are the real threat to peace. And on the basis of our shared principles and democratic values, America has an undeniable obligation to stand squarely with our democratic ally against those attempting to end the State of Israel.

Israel and the United States differ greatly in size, population, and natural resources. But in the things that truly matter, our countries are strikingly similar.

Our Founders were profoundly influenced by faith. Both countries practice religious tolerance. Both countries are filled with immigrants summoned by dreams.

For people fleeing the storms of persecution, both countries have been safe harbors.

We respect freedom and honor individual rights.

We tolerate a vigorous public debate through unfettered speech and a free press.

We welcome the conflict of contested elections.

We live under the rule of law. And we respect human rights.

The homicide bombings in Israel underscore the terrorists' true goal: Eliminating the State of Israel. But the things democracies treasure and protect are the terrorists' additional unstated target.

No democracy fighting terrorism can hope to protect itself without actively destroying terrorist networks wherever they are found.

And to the Beltway elite that stubbornly prods Israel to peddle away her security through an endless series of concessions, let's be clear: You''re dead wrong.

Every Israeli citizen murdered by terrorists demonstrates the folly of using negotiations with terrorists as a pathway to peace.

Now, Ted Turner and some of our deluded diplomats may actually believe that this approach can deliver peace for Israel. But I put my trust in practical experience.

Concessions to terrorists send a clear and unambiguous signal: "You're winning. Keep it up and you'll achieve more and more of your goals."

But some Western governments can't comprehend that the enemies of civilization won't be swayed by civilized gestures.

The idea that weakness in the face of violence directed against democracies can lead to anything but additional violence is the most dangerous and destructive fallacy of our time.

Let's look at the history.

During Oslo, the Palestinian leadership signed a commitment to non-violence. They agreed to resolve outstanding issues through negotiation.

They committed themselves to a peaceful resolution and they renounced terrorism. They said they'd be responsible for all the elements of the PLO. In short, they agreed to crack down on terrorism.

But since Oslo, Arafat's Palestinian Authority has been nothing but a holding company for terrorist subsidiaries.

And, when we talk about Arafat, let's stop pretending that the Sun sets in the East. If it wasn't clear last month, last year, or thirty years ago, it's clear today: Arafat isn't interested in peace.

When a man spends his life fomenting, orchestrating, and directing the slaughter of innocent people that man is, by his very evil and corrupted nature, a terrorist.

And democracies must never negotiate with terrorists. Yasser Arafat is utterly untrustworthy and the United States shouldn't treat him as a legitimate leader.

And we shouldn't expect anyone else to deny forty years of terror and pretend he is a partner for peace.

Arafat is behind more than the murders of thousands of Israelis, he has also betrayed the best interests of his own people. By eliminating anyone who supports peace, this dictator chains the Palestinians to bleak and empty lives.

We need moderate Palestinian leaders to step forward. Only Palestinians who abandon the goal of destroying Israel can negotiate in good faith.

But before a new Palestinian leadership can safely emerge, Israel must dismantle Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and the rest of the terrorist infrastructure that is commanding and controlling homicide attacks.

Only after Arafat's dictatorship gives way to moderate Palestinian leaders, can we expect to see a genuine peace that advances the true interests of the Palestinian people and ensures the survival of Israel.

But, in the search for a resolution, we can't permit the process to become the objective.

We cannot act as a mere broker. We must confront terrorists wherever they are found in the world. And we must support other democracies as they fight separate battles in a common struggle.

Remember, it was the so-called "Peace Process" that brought Arafat into Israel and allowed a terrorist organization to be built in Israel. ..


Thank you and God bless you.

[Christopher II]

Skorenzy -

Your analysis of the situation is exactly right. Israel is really stuck right now. They can't hand over land, they can't negotiate in good faith with Arafat, and they can't just blow the whole of the Middle East away.

Seems like negotiating with Arafat is the sticking point; he's either unwilling or unable (perhaps a bit of both) to reign in the radicals in the PA. Maybe Israel should consider removing Arafat the hard way. His value to the PA as a marytr would be balanced against the chance that the Palestinians would find themselves a real leader. Tough choice.

- Chris

[CMichael]

Chris >>None of the supposed 'benefits' you mention are worth nine billion dollars of American tax money<<

Israel warned the US about 9/11. If the US took it seriously what would have the US saved?

1)About 3,000 civilian lives

2) rather large buildings

3) damage to the Pentagon

4) four planes (although in reality it was paid for by the airlines)

5) Most likely billions that will go into this war.

Michael

[CMichael]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We also give 3 billion a year to Egypt, But hey they got the pyramids right!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They also have the Suz canal whih shortens transit time from the Indian Ocean to the North Atlantic by over a week. They also give us a balance against Israel and several bases. <<

It's too bad they fund the terrorists who try to kill our civilians.