Boca Raton, FL: Roadway Conflict; Kimber Drawn; Miranda Rights Received

[Rich Lucibella]

Could otherwise be titled:
"Are Elections a Public Health Hazard?"


More in the AM...I'm done in!

[Coronach]

Oh, now thats a mean little teaser!

Mike

[Hkmp5sd]

Well, in Florida, elections are certainly not boring.

[Dave P]

Hey Rich, must have something to do with all the DemocRATS down there!

1:47 AM - at least you are home now!

[Rich Lucibella]

OK, here goes.
Around midnight last night, I'm driving home from a wedding.

Location: Federal Highway in Boca Raton...high end neighborhood. Divided 4 lane highway.

I stop at a traffic light and am immediately accosted by a young kid, about 15, banging on my driver's window, pleading for help from a guy who's "going to kill me".

Car pulls up behind me...big guy jumps out and starts toward us.

One hand under my jacket and on my pistol, I tell the kid to get in as I U-Turn and take off. My thoughts at the time: Car-Jack, Bad Drug Deal, Bad Prostitute deal. (Yeah, I know...the cops told me I should have just driven on, too. more on that later.)

Stopwatch from start: 10 seconds

The kid is real excited in the back seat. I'm driving with one hand, the other still on the gun, trying to keep one eye on him and calm him down. "Keep your hands behind the front seats. OK, I'll tell you what. I'll drive you straight to the Boca Police Station. Just calm down and stop waving your hands".

Two blocks south he starts begging me to let him out: "There's my friends. Please Mister, I'm OK". I pull over. He jumps out. A second car pulls up behind me. A group of his friends heads across the street toward me. I've had enough.

Yeah, I know..."just drive on". However, the stopwatch is at 20 seconds now...things are happening very fast and I'm not going to continue 'reacting"...time to change their reality.

I exit the car and take two steps forward toward the oncoming kids. They retreat to the other side of the road (they were never a real threat in my mind...the car behind me was). I turn to the car and wave them past...another group of kids...no involvement As I head for my door, they're stopped at a light 100 feet in front of me....left lane.

A third car makes a left turn from the right side of that intersection, wrong way onto the one way street and blocks me.

I hand the phone to my passenger thru the window and tell her to dial 911.
Second large guy gets out and charges forward as I read off the name of the cross street.
Stopwatch: Maybe 40 seconds.

My right hand goes under my jacket, visible by intent. I raise my left hand and order him back..he continues on and makes it to the front of his car, about 10 yards away before I see something in his right hand...a radio? Unsure. That's as far as he got. I withdraw the Kimber Ultra and order him to his knees. He complies. I clearly remember the safety coming off and the fact that I was covering the ground with the muzzle, finger straight.

Boca Police car, lights on, pulls up on the far side of the median and I wave him over as I move between my passenger (still in the car) and the "threat". He U-Turns and stops behind me. I raise both hands, the pistol in my right, held by slide, grip up, muzzle down. Cop orders me to drop the gun and my passenger to put her hands out the window. By the time it's over, he's covered both of us with his own muzzle. (No cop bashing necessary. He was in a bad situation here.)

Cop orders the guy on his knees to drop what's in his right hand as backup arrives. (By the end, there would be more than 1/2 dozen cops there.)

Total time elapsed: under a minute-15.

I surrender my license and permit. Cop's a sergeant. He asks me what happened. I tell him that I'm not certain, but explain about the kid, the first guy (who has now arrived), the fact that I was taking the kid to the Station to let them sort it out, the fact that the second car blocked me, that I'd put out a call to 911 (passenger had connected but told them to disregard when the cop showed up), the fact that this guy charged me and that I withdrew the pistol in self defense and never covered him with it.

The sergeant asks why I was pointing it at the second guy when he pulled up and orders my Miranda rights! I accept the rights and offer them one statement: "We called 911; I was in mortal fear; the guy blocked my exit and charged me with something in his right hand." I was not cuffed and I was not treated badly. However, the cop's statement that I was covering the guy with my muzzle had me certain that I was going to be charged....even though the guy on his knees was never visible to the sergeant until after he'd exited his own vehicle and come around the left rear of mine...by then my weapon was in the air, muzzle down.

About 45 minutes later, all was straightened out. Here's what it was all about:
These two guys were putting up Republican signs on Federal Highway. The kids were stealing them. The men were in radio contact. They didn't know if I was involved or not.

Now it gets interesting. The Sergeant explains that the entire thing was a Cluster Whatever (his words). He explains that the driver had committed aggravated assault and so had I. He asks if we wish to provide mutual releases to each other. We all agree.

He then proceeds to lecture me about the fact that I should not have gotten involved. I asked him what he would have done if he was off duty and a teenager was pleading for sanctuary. He explained that he's "on duty 24/7". I explained that, as a fellow citizen, so am I. It's my community and I'm not gonna leave some kid in the middle of the street like that. He returns my pistol to the trunk of my car, cocked with safety off and advises that I can stop down the road and secure it which I did.


Debrief Questions:
- Should I have let the kid in the car? (I'd do it again)
- Should I have ever exited the car? There's a real question. From the maximum safety standpoint, no...an S-500 Mercedes can hold its own in speed and crash resistance against about anything out there. From the standpoint of having had enough and deciding to "change the other guy's reality", it worked for me.
- Should I have drawn a weapon? I'd do it again.
- Are the Dems paying kids to rip off Republican signs? Well the two guys (one a local campaign chairman) claim it's been going on for over a week!
- Should I have covered my six? You bet...dumb, dumb, dumb! Tunnel vision dumb.
- Should the cops have handled it better? I'm not certain they could have.
- Should the Boca Police return my Emerson Commander...they'd better!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Attack at will.
Rich

[Kharn]

I volunteered with the Campus Republicans here at UDel in 2000 to help set up for election day, and was given the job of riding around with a few other guys to put up signs at all the polling places in an area the night before the polls opened. What really pissed me off was the conversation between two 40+ year old men at the headquarters (after I'd help put up signs all night long, this was at like 2am) discussing if they could fit some of big Democrat signs in the back of a pickup because some of the big Republican signs had been stolen already. Suffice to say, I'm not volunteering this year.

Kharn

[joeislove]

Sounds like you handled it ok, up until the point where you got fenced in and left your car.

I definitely would have picked up the kid. Who knows what he's scared of? You might have been preventing a murder. I, for one, am very glad that there are people out there that will still "get involved" when someone is in trouble. Shows our society hasn't completely collapsed yet.

I would never have left my car, though. Not sure what things looked like where you were, but I don't think I would have stopped until I was at the police station, or at least at a shopping center or someplace with plenty of light and witnesses.

Who knows what I would have done in that situation, though. You were the one there, and it sounds like you kept your head. Hopefully I'll be able to keep my cool like that if I'm ever put in a similar situation.

[Atc1man]

The problem with society is that people just won't get involved. People are too scared to stop and help people.
People are too scared to correct bad behavior (honking at bad driver's, telling people to shut the **** up in the movie theater...)
So....without citizen involvement our society is going to hell in a hand basket quick. I think the bravest thing someone can do is step up to the plate and help someone.
The guy placing signs was in the wrong. He should have called the police and complained, rather then play James Bond over a bunch of signs.
I say, good for you. Someone needed help and you complied (although keeping a wary eye on them...). There's the old story of women beating on doors to get help, only to be murdered on the person's doorstep by ex-hubby or BF who's lost it.

Get involved. Be a citizen, not a self absorbed suv driving cellphone chatting soccer practice driving the same as everyone else type......

[FPrice]

I certainly cannot second guess you but I would offer one bit of advice. You had a cell phone. The minute I had that kid in my car I would have had my passenger call 911 and explain the situation and ask for a car to respond. That way you establish your side of the story immediately and get the police rolling.

Otherwise you are to commended for getting involved and trying to help.

[jwsandi]

Rich,

I spent 5 ½ years as a Deputy Sheriff and in two weeks I’ll take an oath for my agency of Federal Law Enforcement Officer.

Speaking from experience you did well, you made the best of a bad situation, you reacted to a threat, and you were in fear for life, limb and possibly property. No one was hurt, no one was killed, and everyone learned valuable lessons.

Just by the general description you did commit the “offence” of aggravated assault but then again anytime a weapon in involved it will be aggravated assault regardless if a shot was fired or not, even a knife or baton would still elevate the situation of to meet the bar of aggravated assault.

What the police officer did was use the situation to his and ultimately your advantage by asking you both for a mutual release of charges against on another.

To answer your questions…

1. Tuff call, personally if I was alone I’d just left him and called 911, took up a position down the street and tried to witness the events.
2. No, if you wanted to provide the kid refuge fine but I’d locked the doors and stayed put, when the B/G approached the car order him back then show him the weapon.
3. Yes
4. Wouldn’t surprise me, but I did arrest two teens in 1994 for stealing election signs off of private property.
5. Tuff to do when you’re all alone, unfamiliar with the situation and in fear of your life.
6. You can always handle the situation better, but were just humans, we live and learn.
7. Yes, they have to.

[Keith Rogan]

I'm sure ten people are going to jump in and say you shouldn't have gotten involved... But, the hell with that!

In this situation (you thought) a life was at stake and reacted as I would hope any good citizen would. You didn't over-react - you didn't shoot anybody - you just stopped the situation from unfolding. Surely, if the police hadn't arrived when they did, you would have found out it was no big deal and it would have ended quietly.

The people who over-reacted were the men chasing the kids for stealing the signs, which is a misdemeanor at best. They are the ones who created a scenario where it appeared lives were at stake.

In my state you have a "get out of jail free" card in situations like this. You merely have to say "I was placing the guy under arrest" and he continued to advance in a threatening manner. Citizens in MOST states have wide arrest powers (though, they don't realize it) and interjecting this into a situation will make any DA back away from prosecution because it throws a whole new dynamic into the case. It's very difficult to prosecute because the law recognizes this right as sacrosanct - at least in most states.

You'll want to check the law in your own state before filing that in your bag of tricks.

[MBG]

Yeah, they get squirrelly about the signs around here, too. After getting inundated with complaint calls in election 2000, my county’s response was to clear ALL signs from county roads.

As for the situation, the first thing to say is the campaign worker should have known better than to escalate. Chasing the kids down was far beyond the normal level of retaliation for their game. Setting all the signs out is a quasi-legal activity, at best, and the person you wind up chasing may be the legitimate property owner clearing trash from their yard. Getting into a fight putting up signs is bad PR for your candidate.

As for the situation, keeping to plan A of driving to the station would probably been the best approach. All you knew was that you had a really excited kid, who actually did have someone after them. Letting him out in the area puts him back in immediate danger. And, if he was part of a set up (my first though) you allow him to pick the confrontation ground. As far as I know, no one has ever gotten in trouble for sorting it out down at the station. I might have had my passenger call ahead, and let them know the situation.

Once the kid was out of the car, I would have disengaged and left. There were obviously games afoot, and he was a willing participant. Around here, if things had gone bad, they would have branded YOU a willing participant to the altercation, negating any claim of self-defense.

I can’t fault what happened once you got blocked in. At that point, you do what you gotta do, and sort it out later.

That’s my Sunday afternoon armchair QB’ing. Glad to hear it didn’t turn out any worse.

BTW, did the kid stick around and speak up on your behalf, or did he disappear into the night?

Marty

[archeryfanatic]

This is a tough one. You wouldn't want to leave someone really in need of help but at the same time let's not forget your responsibility to keep you and your passenger safe from harm.
Could have gotten real ugly if the kid had bad intensions. What if the kid was packing? Letting him in the back seat would be putting him in a good position to draw a pistol and stick it to your head while you are driving- after all, you'd have to keep your eyes on the road part of the time to be driving. Even if you did see the kid reach for a pistol, if you're a right hander, if the kid siddled up directly behind you and stuck a gun to your head there isn't much you can do at that point but wait for an opportunity IF one presents itself.
I'd have just called the police and stay in the car and see what develops. Keeping the option to drive off open.

[Jamie Young]

Sometimes there are the "right decisions" and sometimes there are the "wrong decisions." And sometimes there are "no win scenarios."

If the area was all clear, I would have let the kid in the car. If someone was right on his tail, I don't know if I would have let him in the car.

Nobody got shot or killed, so, you "may" have made the right decisions. You could have accidentally picked up someone that just got done murdering someone. But that didn't happen and your ok.

Just say this to yourself "it could have been worse."

You'll know in a couple days if you made the right decisions.

[Seeker]

- Should the Boca Police return my Emerson Commander.

When did the police collect your Emerson Commander? I see where you drew you Kimber and then surrendered it to the police, and they returned to you, by placing it in you trunk, but where did the Emerson coe into play and why would they give the Kimber back but keep the Emerson?

Also, stopping to help someone in need was a good thing to do, thankfully it turned out alright for you and didn't turn out to be a trap.

[Ed Brunner]

It's like this: You have good instincts and you handled the situation. You can rethink any part of the activity and be as critical as you want, but the bottom line is you all walked away from a potentially deadly encounter.
Hope you get your knife back. They let you keep your gun, but took your knife???

[Rich Lucibella]

MBG is right.
Exiting the vehicle was a questionable defensive tactic; but it was certainly a bad legal choice. Had things gone from bad to worse, it would have been a tough decision to explain.

The cops were most interested in the fact that we had dialed 911....I think this is what cleared me in the end. They discussed it amongst themselves and questioned my passenger several times about who she'd spoken to.

As for not taking the kid to the Police Station, I'll stand by that decision. He was now out of the area and returned to friendly ground....he was no longer in danger; we were. There was simply no way to control his actions while driving. I was happy to have him out of the car.

Did he come back to defend me? Uncertain. The gang of kids came over and were interviewed about 50 yards away. I'm not certain if he was in the group.

Not calling the cops sooner: first priority was getting him out of the area and determining the danger to us. Second was getting help...cops were called within about 45 seconds of the start. That isn't to say I couldn't have done it sooner...good point.

The Emerson Commander: Once the Seargeant had collected my pistol and backup was on the scene, I removed my jacket so they could see there was nothing else under it. One of the cops asked if I had any other guns on me. I said "no" and handed him the Emerson. He played with it for a bit and obviously just forgot to return it.
Rich

ps: There's a message from early this morning on my answering machine. The officer called and apologized for forgetting to return my knife. He left the case number and told me I can pick it up anytime on Monday. He ended with, "I apologize for any inconvenience I might have caused you." Good guy.

[thumbtack]

Rich,

I think what you did was admirable and I happy to hear that you and noone else was hurt.

[citizen]

No criticizm here. Just glad you're OK.

Life is a learning experience; and I'm grateful you shared this.

Well disciplined responses are a result of training and practise.

You did good.

Now move on.

[Kentucky Rifle]

I think you did good too. I hope I'd be able to "keep my head" as well in the same situation.

KR

[Sisco]

I congratulate you for getting involved. More people should.
Now this may sound like a stupid question but it's not intended to be.
When an officer orders you to drop you Kimber, do you drop it onto the pavement? Just the thought of that makes me wince.

[El Rojo]

Isn't it easy to say what we would have done in that situation? Now Rich, look back on it and realize what you forgot to check or what you would have done had it not all been happening so fast. All that matters really is that you are alive and unhurt, no one else is hurt, and you are not in jail as a result. In my mind, it turned out alright.

Really the person that needs to re-evaluate their tactics was the guy that blocked your car in illegally. All he had to do was tail you and give license number, vehicle description, and direction of travel. By blocking you in and confronting you, he was taking a big chance that you weren't armed and ready to confront. Bad news for him, you were armed, good news for him, you were a good guy. If anyone is getting a wake up call in all of this, it should be him.

Yes, the kid was obviously a democrat thug for hire!

[Coronach]

Damn. Yup, that fits the textbook definition of a cluster**** if I ever heard one.

Armchair beer drinking critique?

I'd be leery of letting the kid in my car. Was he bait for a carjacking? Was he armed? Its kinda hard to keep one eye on him, one eye on the road, and one eye on the alleged bad guy(s). You run outta eyes.

Drawing down on the guy running up to you. Well, I dunno if Florida has "duty to retreat" as part of their self-defense case law, whether you were honestly unable to retreat if they do, etc etc etc. Kinda have to be there to say (gee, not at all unlike what I usually say in LEO shooting scenarios, huh?). You weren't charged and you got your gun back (if improperly, yikes!)...which speaks volumes about the propriety of the action.

As to the Sergeant...dunno where he got his 411 that you were aiming the gun at him. Possibly from radio broadcasts, possibly from others at the scene, possibly from his own imagination. And, it might not matter whether you were actually covering him with the muzzle...you had the gun out, aimed in his general direction (right? or was it aimed at the ground right IFO you?)...thats still a threat of deadly force in most places, I'd imagine. Dunno. Also, he could be a dufus. Known a few 3-striped dufuses in my short career.

Yeah, they should be giving the knife back. It happens (before anyone has dark ideas about the cop coveting the knife). I'm kinda famous for inadvertently hanging on to people's driver's licenses after traffic accidents. I end up digging through my pockets and discovering someone's driver's license late in the shift, and I have to run the Errand of Shame over to their house to give it back.

Yikes, man. Glad it all worked out. And the Florida Republican Party thanks you for your support!

Mike

[KSFreeman]

The important thing: no one got shot! To win without fighting is the greatest of all victories.

Lesson learned: keep on, keeping on. That's why we have cell phones. Cell phones work, use them and let someone else think of the children.

[Denny Hansen]

Ya did good.

Exiting the car may or may not have been a good idea. Reading between the lines, you may have still been concerned for the kid. After all, he said the guy was trying to kill him. Subconsiously, you may have still been looking out for him. Date unarmed? If flat-out leaving was not an option (and based on the above it may not have been) you at least took her out of the direct line of fire.

Final thought: I'll call your name into The Bachelor, you pick the best of the lot and then take her to Thunder Ranch for Team Tactics