AR-15 haters club part4

[George Hill]

Part 3 is here: http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/...ML/004412.html

Lets keep this going... fun thread...

[D. Moon]

A man who rally knows how to use a rifle is incredibly formidable, I don't care if it's an AR, M-1A, H&K, Enfield, Winchester 30-30, FN-FAL. I'll take whichever is at hand.

[citizen]

I've been following this thread, and what I've read has caused pause in my plans.
What incredible timing!!!!!
All this discord has soured me on an AR; as I was about to order a Southpaw DPMS.
I've got a couple of Mini-14's that give me no problems, now I'll probably just scope one of them and order an FAL instead. There seem to be no doubts about them!

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NRA LIFE MEMBER
ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM ESSE

[DUDE]

ok you all need one more bit of info, the M16 was developed to replace the M1, M1A1, and M2, Carbines NOT the M14. to replace the Carbines it needs to have a Maximum Effective Range of 300 to 350-yards, for a replace it's a good gun, and for what U.S. Soldier's use it for. it is an ASSAULT RIFLE it is use to shoot from 0 to 400-yards, you can shoot it out to 700 or 800-yards but the round is not design for that well? not design for that in the M16. the M16 is a good combat gun if you use it for what it was design for and Assault Rifle NOT a Battle Rifle. this Topic is not going to do any good in the long good the U.S. Military is still going to use the M16 Series of Rifles, and U.S. Soldier's are still going to carry them into combat. and you can go on and on and on and in the end all the guys like MAD DOG are still not going to like the M16, and all the guys like me will still like the M16. so lets stop and say ther are guys that like the M16 and ther are guys that don't like the M16. OK

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Technical Sergeant Andrew Robert Smith
CO LRRP Team
of the Second Ranger Battalion Charlie Company in WW2 Online.

[krept]

citizen! Get an AK variant while you still can!

[krept]

In all fairness... I had to post this here, as TFL was mentioned.
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum3/HTML/023433.html

[This message has been edited by krept (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Blue Duck357]

Ballistics experts and practical experince be damned. The AR's I've shot go "spoooinggg" when you fire them. No real he-man gun could ever make a sound like that.

Before anybody tell's me they can fix that, (bunch of grease in the stock). I will not pay $700 for a rifle whose most popular search phrases are:

1. "Well... it works if it's clean"

2. "The new ones don't do that"

3. "Well... it works if it's clean"

4. "You just need some good magazines"

5. "Well... it works if it's clean"

6. "A good armorer can fix that"

7. "Well... it works if it's clean"

8. "That would not have broken off if you
if you had cleaned it better"

9. "Well... it works if it's clean"

10. "What the heck was that Spooinnng sound"

Regards, Blue Duck

[Blue Duck357]

Sorry forgot the biggest one!

Boo hoo (tears falling) "It was the ball powders fault".

Enfields functioned fine with cordite, Smokless powder,Black powder, or charcoal and sulphur with some gravel thrown in.

Progress???

[Tom B]

Sound familiar? 1911 maybe?

[Nukem]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by krept:
citizen! Get an AK variant while you still can![/quote]

Sure, great weapon for a monkey, buy mine! It's a POS, er, I mean a great Preban Polytech Legend. I need the money for a NFA weapon.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewP...939&p=15045152

[fight4yourrights]

Despite it's alleged performance, I took a perfectly functional Mini-14 and turned it into a jam-o-matic by feeding mil spec ammo through it.

When I changed to Georgia Arms reloads, the mini ran fine. Wolf ran fine. But mil spec, total jam up.

So, everyone's [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] does stink.

I'll take my AR's anyday. They run like clocks.

[MAD DOG]

"They run like clocks"...
Tickatickaticka SPOIOIOIOING!
(mental image of badly sprung cuckoo bird, hanging on the end of it's little tether as the clock internals go every which way)
Like mechanical clocks, they have to be kept VERY clean, have too many parts to be easily serviced in the field, and require constant "winding" in the form of maintenance.

Give me a sundial's relaibility any day.
And if I have a Surefire 6V, I can still tell the time at night!

[MAD DOG]

Brothers and sisters,
hear me!
I have had a vision.
Hallelujah!
In this vision, the Patron Saint of Weapons, St. John Moses Browning, came to me and held out his hand, In his hand was a bullet, and it was .30 caliber.

Then he held out his other hand, and in it was a gas system that required no direct impingement. And it was good.
And he pointed to the path of righteousness, and I saw that it was being trod by a few men, men that were carrying reliable weapons and had no wounds upon them. They were in a state of Grace. Indeed, they all carried weapons with steel receivers, suitable calibers, and well designed operating systems.

Then he turned and pointed to the path to perdition, hell and points south. It was full of sinners. They wailed and moaned, all wounded and torn. They carried AR15s, and complained not of the weight of them, but rather of their infernal fallibility.
There was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, and they knew that they had been deceived, or had been deceivers in the end game of reliability.

Amen.


[This message has been edited by MAD DOG (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Correia]

I issued this challenge in the last thread and didn't get any responses.

The AR was designed in the sixties, since then dozens of military rifles have been designed all over the world by people who had the advantage of learning from previous designs.. Of those how many have copied the ARs direct gas impingement system? How many have a spring loaded ejector like the AR? I honestly can't think of any, though I'm not 100% sure on the ejector.

On the other hand how many have some sort of op-rod or gas piston? How many have fixed ejectors? With a gas piston in the last 40 years: G36, SAR, AR18, Aug, Galil, Valmet, K2, FARA, Tavor, AR 70, Sig 550, Sako M90, Stoner 63, An 94, and I'm probably forgeting some others. Even the Taiwan made version of the M16 has a gas piston.

So not talking about calibers (and no I don't believe that a .223 can blow a mans head clean off thank you very much, and I happen to like .223), not talking about mission, not talking about anything but the actual design and operation of the gun. Don't you think that there is a reason why everybody on the planet has gone to an operating system different than the one we made up 40 years ago?

And I know that the Isralies use M16s, but thats not a hard decision for their govt. to make when they get them for free!

[RikWriter]

George said:
&gt;&gt;To kick off that thread - I'll start the subject.
The Galil is only heavier when your compairing it to a regualar AR... the AR heavy barrels that are in vogue today are heavier than the galil. A HB AR-15 with a loaded mag and a scope... your looking at what 8 or 9 pounds? The HB carbines are less so - but still... you cant say that light weight is a factor that makes it better than the Galil.&lt;&lt;

Again you miss the point George, that to change the AR from a HBAR target gun to a short barrelled carbine requires about 30 seconds to swap out inexpensive uppers. A Galil is what it is, no quick switch-out available.

[George Hill]

Amen Mad Dog!
Correia - your absolutely correct.

This badgering regarding Assault Rifle vs Battle Rifle...
Guess what?
The M16 IS a Battle Rifle. Why? Because its the ONLY rifle we generally issue to troops. The only ones to be issued different are not INFANTRY units. Snipers, Spotters, Tankers, REMFs... They get differnet things form time to time... often the M4, which is a Midget M-16. Spotters, Snipers, Spec Ops guys can get M14s but only in small numbers. The General Issue is the M16 so dispite its original design or intent - its now serving as our Battle Rifle.
And as a battle rifle it is sorely lacking.
Other so called assault rifles do rather well as battle rifles - look at the AK47, AK 74... Its not just wood... Look at the FAL - it comes with a plastic stock - a very sturdy one. You can trust these other rifles not to get easily bent or broken.
If you MUST have an Assault rifle - I'ld recomend an AK variant.
If you want a battle rifle in .223 - there is the M96 that is a far far better, and actually worth the money. Its a Man's Rifle that just happens to be chambered for the .223 cartridge. There is nothing like it in the world, dispite its outward appearance of another Stoner rifle. The M96 Carbine is just about what I would call PERFECT.

[George Hill]

Oh - Rik, My bad! I forgot you had to bring out 1/2 of another rifle to make it handier.
Thanks for correcting me.

But You are right - One advantage the AR DOES have is its ability to be transformed...
Like a homely girl at the mall - she can get a makeover that makes her quite visually appealing.
The AR is also like a set of Legos. You take pieces off - you put other pieces on and you have a totally differant toy.
One of my little boys built a nice space ship out of legos the other day. He was in the kitchen with it and dropped it. The ship came appart and the little blocks went everywhere. Funny - An AR is almost that delicate as well.

[MAD DOG]

"The Galil is what it is..."
Truer words were never spoke.

The Galil is, indeed, what it is: an effective, RELIABLE combat weapon. It makes no pretenses at being anything else. Nor do it's proponents attempt to make it out as anything other than what it is.

Whereas the poor little AR continues (through the offices of its promoters) to try to be all things to all people, and being none of them particularly effectively.


Overheard at an AR15 design meeting:

"Lets try heavier barrels!
Lets try a steeper twist rate! Lets try heavier bullets!
Oops, too heavy, back off a bit.. but wait, we made all of those barrels with steeper twist to handle the too heavy bullet.. OOPs.. DOH!
Lets sell it as a match rifle!
No wait, lets sell it as an improved, lighter weight combat rifle.. in which case we need to saw off the barrel a bit, and.. oh wait, that messes up the velocity that gives us the "Hyper lethality" that we invented to explain the tiny bullet, oh who cares....
They can switch out the parts later, after they buy it and decide what they really need."


What they really need is another rifle design that isn't FUBAR to begin with!!




[This message has been edited by MAD DOG (edited November 10, 2000).]

[George Hill]

Oh - Larry, I think Singapore is making M16 rifles on there own tool machines.
I dont know why.
Then again Singapore builds a little fighter plane that looks very much like an under grown F18 with a single tail.
I dont know why they do that either.

Got to wonder about folks who's national mascot is a smilie face.

[RikWriter]

Whatever George and MadDog. You guys have the freedom to own whatever you want that you can get your hands on (legally or otherwise) so go for it. If you never want to own an AR, don't buy one.
Me, I am very happy with all my ARs and if I were forced down to one long gun, it would be a preban AR with a few different uppers.
Not gonna change my mind because that is my personal experience with the gun.
I know you won't change yours either, but your hyperbolic rants about the gun are beginning to be embarrassing to watch.

[Shin-Tao]

Armaments 4:12

1 And behold, St. Browning descended until he stood apon the face of the Earth.
2 His countenance was grave and he spoke with a voice of thunder, saying: This direct gas you have taken on yourselves is a filthy thing, one wich leads to greater filth and failure.
3 The hoplites were afraid to see that they had displeased their Saint, and one tried to hide beneith the other, resulting in no one being hid.
4 The Saint spoke again, saying: Have I not already shown thee the way?
5 And behold, an Angel of the lord did alight from the heavens and place on the Earth a row of holy weapons, each of great merit and streangth.
6 In these things I have given unto thee do you not see the great power and firmness thereof? Do you not see the operating lives of many years? Do you not see the firmness of my work?
7 And then one of our number who was never in a legion, stood and held aloft the rifle of sixteen and said: Your work is old. This, our new armament works fine whilst clean!
8 And the Earth shook and this man vanished from our pressence, obscured by ignorance and the disdain of the Saint
8 Behold I say unto you one last time! A weapon of war must work whilst in a war! A weapon that is worthy must work while soiled with the dirt of the field!
9 As he spoke he ascended into heaven, taking with him the holy weapons, leaving us cursed with fragility, weakness, and jamms.
10 We howled and lammented and cast our eyes round about but saw nothing to save us.

[MAD DOG]

Amen, brother!

[Ken Cook]

FACT 1.
AR15/M16s now consistantly beat the pants off of the infallable 7.62 M14s in long range matches now. (The infallable M14s that double regularly because of over tuned triggers.)

FACT 2. The AR15/M16 may not "blow someone's head clean off" but it will remove enough that you will die before you start falling and Mommy won't recognize your corpse. (I've seen it, and so have many of you who are sitting here crapping on the cartridge as if it weren't suitable for killing cats.)

FACT 3. The M16/AR15 is NOT an "Assault Rifle." There is no such THING as an "Assault Rifle" as this is a term invented by the gun grabbers. Shame on you for being duped into using it. You further their cause every time the word blabbers from your lips.

FACT 4. The rifle's proper name is the (in current configuration) M16A2 Service Rifle.

Leave the uninformed opinions at home, bring facts, and maybe we can all learn something.
But these threads aren't really about learning anything are they?

Ever notice that Critics always trash the Author's work but never write a book themselves?
Wonder why that is?


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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[Battler]

As to your fact 2, I know someone personally who was shot perpendicular in the upper half of the skull above the jaw with a 223, side on. And not a short barreled; but a deliberate hit with a boltaction with a long barrel.

No, he hasn't gone all "Brady" from the injury - indeed you can't actually see any damage from outside although there is some bone and tooth damage.

"you will die before you start falling and Mommy won't recognize your corpse". Well, given that he looks exactly the same after as before, this statement doesn't fly. Although he said that it was one of the less pleasant experiences of his life - akin to being sucker punched REAL hard. Might have been in danger though if he hadn't gotten to a hospital 2 hours later.

It was a longer-distance deliberate shot. Maybe it came from outside of this "lethal range" but it was a pretty accurate hit on someone moving around, made by an enraged nutball running around in the woods, so it couldn't have exactly been a long range bench shot.


People on here may be right or wrong about the AR15's reliability.

But let's just take it easy on exaggerations about the 223's capabilities. 223's advantages are low weight and low recoil and consequently can be used in a gun that's lighter to lug around. But let's leave it at that, please.


Battler.



[This message has been edited by Battler (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Shin-Tao]

Armaments 4:17

1 And Saint Kalashnikov stood on the hillside, the assault rifle raised above his head. And he spoke saying: With this thy holy ASSAULT RIFLE, you my face the real enemy. The real enemy does not stand still in a clear field while you adjust your sights and perfect your trigger control. The real enemy is maneuvering violently and zig-zags, takes cover. The real enemy shoots at you as you attempt to shoot him!
2 The carefull, aimed shot is for the rare occasion, or for the sniper. The ASSAULT RIFLE is for the regular infantrymen. With it you fire short burst to strike a darting foe. This foe does not paint himself white or give you score.
3 On calibre, I say this is a secondary thing. What is of great import is reliability in times of peril.
4 reliability gives you the opertunity to fire time after time.
5 Bursts allow you to hit thy enemy whilst he tries not to be hit. This is the way of the field, not the range, or the hunt.
6 And the Saint bestowed the ASSAULT RIFLE, known also as STURM GEWHER on the children of man.


[This message has been edited by Shin-Tao (edited November 10, 2000).]