Has Highway Stop Procedure Changed?

**Rich Lucibella** · December 17, 1998, 04:22 AM

I drove 9 hours back from NC to South FL today (okay, it's an 11 hour drive). I was stopped twice...SC and FL. Good guys in both cases...one warning and one ticket; both gave me a break; both were gentlemen.

But here's the issue. Both cops asked if I was carrying any large sums of money (among other questions). This struck me as strange...naturally I said, "Nope, just waht's in my pocket"....course what's in my pocket on a road trip might be considered \"large" by them; I'm not sure.

Now I'm not looking for a "flame the law" thread here....I hadn't shaved in 3 days; was wearing a heavy leather Harley jacket and driving a semi-expensive sports car registered to a Florida corp. But I'm wondering if this is becoming a standard question in highway stops when there's a bit of suspicion?
Rich

Bushwhacker · December 17, 1998, 07:29 AM

Rich were you on I-95?
In recent years there has been alot of drug traficking along I-95 and this is where they LEO catch alot The money part well goes hand in hand but I've seen them search tractor-trailers to m/c's and the way the person is dressed has alot to do with it. I interested in what the LEO members have to say. I got stopped one time on I-10 going to fla. and the two deputies took my car and the trailer apart.I think the time of year had something to do with it Mardi-gra location just east of New Orleans.

[This message has been edited by FLYERM14 (edited 12-17-98).]

. · December 17, 1998, 07:58 AM

Profile Bro, profile. Keep it low, or drive a ratty old pickup truck. Large sums of cash is considered a target. It is one of the characteristics that fit the profile of an operative in the drug distribution industry. It also can be confiscated and depending on the circumstances may be forfeit to the enforcement agency, hence another enticing "funding" target. Local fella collects tractors and steam implements. He goes to auctions around the country, and usually carries $10-15K to these events for spot buys. He got stopped for a burned-out tail-light bulb, answered the questions truthfully, spent the evening in jail and 6-months and lots of legal fees to recover his cash. The banking industry's move to eliminate the use of cash, would generate better financial info and that would better profile illegal financial transactions (see the thread in DC's Forum)

Michael Carlin · December 17, 1998, 09:50 AM

Rich,

The question itself is a one way deal. You are anxious to get on your way, if you refuse to answer, the man takes your stuff apart. If you had said yes, the man takes your stuff apart.

If there is a large sum of cash, he will confiscate it on the spot and charge you with something.

Had he given you a Miranda warning? I ask because an affirmative answer will undoubtedly result in Mykl's friend's scenario.

This profile business is very violative of the right to move about freely. I am no defender of drug trafficking, but it appears to me that an enormous chunk of our rights are compromised in increasing efforts to prohibit drugs. This is in the name of public safety, (does this sound familiar?) and there is no one in the main stream willing to stand up and say prohibition does not seem to work.

Ah, well that is my rant for the day.

yours in marksmanship

michael

longhair · December 17, 1998, 01:07 PM

Michael, i agree w/ you. the rights we have forfeited because of the war on drug are many. now if you fit a certain "profile" that's probable cause to stop you. you're automatically guilty, as decribed in this thread about the guy that buys farm equipment. since when is it against the law to have money???? and i guess i fit some kind of profile w/ longhair, beard, etc., so when i get stopped, ( it's hard to drive 55 ) quite often i get "special" attention. now this is not always the case, but often enough. i choose to look they way i do, the way most people do, but if you're "pretty" like me you must be willing to take the heat for it..

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fiat justitia

Rob Pincus · December 17, 1998, 05:55 PM

Okay, I may get flamed here, but:

LEOs are judgemental.

There I said it. I almost got arrested once because a local LEO pulled my over in a brand new Bronco with a California Temp Tag. I was about 2 miles from my house and I had just driven all the way back from California in about 40 hours. I looked like ****, I had a Glock in a shoulder holster under my jacket, which I told him about. This was before I was a credentialed LEO, but I had a permit. I had two longuns in racks in the back side windows.
the officer tried to tell me that I didn't live where my ID said I did and that the vehicle was illegal, since I was a Tennessee resident I couldn't have a truck with a california temp tag.

Obviously, the guy was all wrong, but I sorta understand where he was coming from. He called me in and one of his fellow officers recognized my name and showed up while he was trying to figure out waht to do. BTW- I had been going 55 in a 45, based on his expert opinion...he didn't even have radar!

I concur with the I-95 theory. especially if it was the S.C. officer who asked about the money. When I get pulled over with out of state tags on the East Coast I almost always get asked questions about the multitude of gear I have crammed into my vehicle. Where I am going? Am I travelling with any valuables. yada, yada. I am not ready to say that it is a big conspiracy to stop the flow of cash or to confiscate everything of value, but as an LEO, I understand that those are the kinds of questions that can lead to interesting answers and subsequent PC to do a search if the circumstances are suspicious. I don't like it, but it is reality.
I get pulled over a lot. The latest time was in West Virginia, but the officer wlaked up to the car and said, "Sir, can I see some ID, I'm giving you a warning." I like West Virginia!

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-Essayons

Kodiac · December 17, 1998, 07:24 PM

Rich fit into a "profile."
Scruffy guy with a nice car... must have money but not a profesional job. Yeah, that would have gotten you pulled over in Virgina as well. Especially on I-95. Richmond had been putting up Road Blocks all over the city last year. They didn't actually stop every one. But if you fit into a prophile you were waved to stop in a search area.
One day I was let through under scrutiny...
the next - I hadnt shaved either... I was waved over. The officer was proffesional enough I guess... for one violating my civil rights... Once I produced my badge I was okay to him. The us verses them mentality... I was waved to stop because of the Shotgun News on the back seat!
Yeah LEOs are judgemental... Innocent until proven guilty is fine in the court room... But as a cadet in the academy we were taught we never arrested or pulled over anyone who wasn't guilty. Admittedly I was the same way... If a guy didnt look right, fit a profile, or just looked like a jerk - I stopped him.
Now, I am one of THEM... and have been stopped many times. I wear a black jacket and blue jeans. I have a goatee. I even still drive like I am on duty (that is a bad habit I am trying to break). As a result, I am a menace to the public and the officer pulling me over is stopping my mad cap crime spree! Good Work Officer Pogue!

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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
[email protected]

Spectre · December 17, 1998, 07:55 PM

I have heard several times lately of areas that have enacted laws allowing the confiscation of large sums of money if the possessee cannot prove that it came from legitimate sources. No crimes charged, just pure theft and abrogation of your Constitutional rights. Personally- I tend to be a mite excitable- I tend to think like this: I am guaranteed the right, by statement and inference, to my property unless the government can prove I obtained it illegally. Anyone seeking to take away my Constitutional rights, by definition, would be a criminal. In this case, we have an armed criminal trying to rob me. Now, I don't want Rich to shut me down for any perceived suggestion of endorsement of tactics most would find questionable, but this is a case of armed robbery. I know how I would treat armed robbers.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 12-18-98).]

DC · December 17, 1998, 08:32 PM

The problem is that mere possession of large amounts of cash is considered defacto evidence of wrongdoing and you must prove its legit, then it takes weeks to months to get it back and likely cost you a bundle in legal fees besides.
This us vs them mentality that LEO has is indicative of the rapid decline of this country and its not going to get better.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Art Eatman · December 17, 1998, 10:41 PM

I have read that in Louisiana, when they "arrest the money", 50% goes to the state treasury; 25% to the local state judge's office; and 25% to the arresting jurisdiction. You can then plead in the state judge's court for the return of your money. Good #$%@$ luck!

Low profile, low profile, low profile. That's reality, in this land of the free. I shave daily. Clean clothes. Plain-jane vehicle. Drive with traffic, generally two to seven mph above highway speed limits.

It aggravates me that a pro-cop guy like myself has to worry about that one percent (1/2%?)which might be overzealous Gestapo.

More and more states are passing reciprocity laws concerning concealed-carry permits. So far, the reports I've had indicate that when one is stopped for trivial traffic stuff, there is a "You're one of us" sort of reaction from most officers, when they see the CHL. There's a bit of hope.

About the only thing I know for Joe Citizen to do is keep on bitchin' to the elected types, at state & federal level. Unending pressure. Never quit, never!

And donate what you can to various pro-gun groups. Some are better than others, of course, but they add to our chorus.

Best regards to all...Art

**Rich Lucibella** · December 18, 1998, 01:18 AM

Wow-
Lot's of good comments here. Let me try to respond in general; I apologize for the length in advance.

I'm aware of the resurrection of 100 year old piracy laws which have been used to confiscate assets. I'm also aware of the abuses that have occured when expected asset forfeiture finds itself into an agency or LEO budget.

And, certainly, "profile" has something to do with my recent experience. OTOH, this is the US of A and I find it embarassing to explain to the uninitiated that you should dress up when on a trip; that you should not drive a sports or luxury car if you have earned one; that you should not walk around with your money in your pocket....all for fear of "looking" suspicious.

When stopped in SC, I was asked if I had any weapons...I stated a pistol in the glove box (legal in journey). For the officer's safety, I was asked out of the car....that's fair (he wasn't speeding, I was). I was never informed of my rights....rather I was engaged in a "casual" conversation as the officer wrote a warning for breaking the speed limit by +15mph.
"What kind of work do you do?"; "Where are you coming from?"; "Do you have any other weapons in the car?". "Do you have any alcohol or drugs in the car?". "Are you carrying any large sums of money?"

When I exited the vehicle, I locked it with the key remote and pocketed the key, waiting to see who I was dealing with. In response to his queries, I offered up a Mad Dog Pygmy Atak II on my belt (5" fixed blade)...he wasn't concerned. I assured him there wasn't even a beer in the car. When he asked about the $$, I explained that I'd been advised never to volunteer access to my auto but that he was welcome to search it.

The officer explained that it was SOP to call in the dogs when people refused to answer and let me go. All in all, he was a good guy who gave me a break and should be commended.

In FL I left the car for dinner. I was later pulled over at night. I immediately attached my seat belt when I saw the cherry top. He asked for my License and Reg. As I went to release the seat belt, I realized, I'd expose the 1911 on my hip. I explained the problem and the cop was alert but unphazed (FL is still Free America)...he was on my passenger side and only asked that I pull my jacket back to reveal the weapon before reaching for my wallet.

He never disarmed me...so, he obviously didn't mistrust me. He asked me to keep my hands on the wheel while he went back to his car. I turned all the interior lights on and complied. When he came back with a ticket (chopped 10mph off the speed), he asked why I was carrying a gun. "Because I can". He actually got a bit defensive in assuring me that that was acceptable. Then he popped the question, "Are you carrying a lot of money or something?". Again I got off with a break.

In short, good guys...questionable policies. That's the reason for my post.
Rich
ps: I'm carrying a .45, a fixed blade, a Sebeza. Got my emergency survival kit in the trunk. Do *I* sound like the type of guy who left town with $300 in his pocket? That's the *other* reason for my post.

VDoe · December 18, 1998, 09:12 AM

Just a little more info for those who travel I-95 through S.C. My brother-in-law was a State Trooper here for many years and I have several friends who are troopers. S.C. has a multi-jurisdictional "team" that patrols I-95 specifically using the "profile" method to try and spot drug runners. They do just as y'all have suggested...pull someone over for speeding or improper lights, then if they fit the profile or act overly nervous/agitated ask if they can search the car. I can't remember what they do if you refuse, but I can ask if someone wants to know.

This is a dangerous situation for the LEO on that team. I had a good friend, Mark Coates, who was on the team. He had pulled a man over for speeding on I-95 near the Hardeeville exit and he fit the profile y'all have been mentioning...scruffy, lot of stuff in the car, etc. The video camera in the patrol car caught all the action. Unfortunately, Mark used very bad judgment/technique when he searched the man, squatting down to search his legs/ankles. The man pushed Mark to the ground, drew out a .22 pistol and began firing. Some of the bullets were stopped by Mark's vest, but as he was drawing his .357 revolver he exposed his side and one .22 went into his side. Mark managed to fire once or twice, hitting the BG in the stomach (I believe), who subsequently stopped firing. Mark died in the helicopter on the way to the hospital. The BG lived, unfortunately.

Is the miniscule amount of drugs stopped through this type of aggressive "profiling" worth the risk to the LEO's life and the potential loss of our rights as American citizens? I don't know...I just don't know.

Chris

Spectre · December 18, 1998, 10:07 AM

I apologize if my prior post gave the impression that I am anti-LEO. I am not, and if I had not moved to be closer to my fiance years ago, I would be a police officer in Alabama right now. I do have serious problems with any who would abuse the power that has been entrusted to them. I am grateful for the chance to relate to the conscientious LEO who grace this forum.

Rob Pincus · December 18, 1998, 11:51 AM

I think that we shouldn't read too much into the question itself. After all, some people might not consider $1000 cash "large sums", and some people might think it is a king's ransom to have in your pocket. Many LEOs have a stadard battery of questions they ask to try to gather information, especially if you fit a "profile." An LEO might ask you if you've seen anybody suspicious, just to watch your response. Does this mean that they are trying to turn the population against itself? No.
In our county, we only put a dog on a car if we have already found or been told about drugs in a vehicle or there is a very compelling reason to suspect there are drugs present.

Along the line, several years ago, part of my job was to transport "large sums" of cash. It was all legal, but not simply associated with depositing it in the bank. For many reasons the owner of this corporation liked to do business in cash. It was pretty common for me to have $5000 or more in various pockets, as I often ride a motorcycle when the weather allows. Now, picture this:
Young guy, Harley painted with 2nd Amendment themes (skeleton arms holding desert eagles etc.,) with $10k in his pocket.
I got pulled over in this condition twice. Once I knew the officer, once I got a real hassle. Neither time was the cash mentioned, but I informed the officers of my firearm immediately, as is my habit. Is this low-profile, no. Would I do it today, probably not.

Unfortunately, I picked up some "bad" habits from my mentor who liked to do business in cash. Now, so do I. There is nothing like handing someone or receiving from some one a good old fashioned pile of money. Try paying a plumber in cash (some of them that are not independent won't be allowed to accept cash!), or go to the bank before you buy that next $1000+ item and count out the money in 100's and 50's in stead of writing a check. It is a completely different buying experience. Of course, don't do any transactions at the bank of $10K or more, or you'll have to fill out special forms at the bank. Several times I've made two or three trips in a day to avoid the $10K marker. Not to avoid any tax liability, but to keep from having to fill out the forms. I understand that the "cieling" on unexplained transactions might be lowered, rumor has it to less than $2500.
Rather insidiously the gov't has instilled a distrust of cash, but it is really unfounded. It is also not much more than skin deep for most people. After all, if there is someone that you don't really trust are you going to accept a check from them? No, of course not, but you'll take cash everytime, right? Cash is good. Cash is fun. Cash is your friend. Checking fees are bad, credit card interest is bad.

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-Essayons

NAD · December 18, 1998, 02:00 PM

It seems to me that if questioned by an LEO during a traffic stop as to whether I have large sums of cash or other valuables I would say no regardless if I had 10 or 10,000 dollars in cash. I am not obligated to incriminate myself nor am I under any oath to tell the truth. If the Leo searches my car and finds $10,000 in cash it wouldn't have mattered if I had lied about it or was truthfull. It would still be confiscated.

Unless things have changed, I always thought that money was "legal tender" and must be accepted for payment of goods and services in this country. I am always annoyed by certain businesses not accepting cash as payment or stipulating they cannot provide change for anything over a 20 dollar bill. People do not have to accept checks, credit, seashells, rocks, etc., but they must accept cash. The reasoning behind this is paper money doesn't have any real value and if people loose faith in it our entire monetary system would collaspe.

Rob Pincus · December 18, 1998, 02:04 PM

Seems like this was brought up a a few years ago. Fed Ex had (possibly still has) a policy in some of its drop off centers (not just the door-to-door guys) that they would not accept cash.

It was brought up that the bills printed by the U.S. "must" be accepted for payment of goods or services. I don't know if they were ever taken to court over it, but I would really like for the Supreme Court to address this issue... the sooner the better.

Kodiac · December 18, 1998, 02:46 PM

The idea of Large Sum of Money is different to who ever your talking to...
It used to be that to me a large sum of mony was over $1000.00. Now that figure has dropped to under $100.00. The VALUE of the individual dollar has changed for me. Especially this time a year. In Utah a large sum would be over 500 bucks on average...
In Park City that sum is probably over $5000.00. I havent heard of any Utah officer using the old piracy laws to confiscate cash... but in the Richmond, VA area they sure did... A 17 year old kid still in school with a couple grand in cash - mostly 10s and 20s driving a new lexus after 2AM on a school night and the address on the liscense is in section 8 housing? That would raise a serious question in my mind. But I feel unless he fit the description of a wanted subject or there was other PC for a crime having been commited... I feel it would be a violation of his civil rights to confiscate any thing... This would of course been subject to not finding any thing after searching per subject's consent.

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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
[email protected]

Doc · December 19, 1998, 12:34 PM

Rich, are you suggesting that you were profiled? We all know that that is illegal and/or improper. Do we profile? Yes. Can it be proven that we do? No. You were speeding, Joe Blow made an improper lane change, John Doe had a dim tail light. Were they profiled? Yes. Were they stopped because they fit the profile? Yes. Was the given reason for the stop, "fit the profile"? No.

AZONE · December 20, 1998, 12:37 PM

It's funny how most of the threads end up somehow "anti cop or government".

The most important responsibilty of any "highway patrol" is traffic safety:speeders, etc...it is also an important responsibilty for any police agency. All the cases of drug running, etc involve inconsistent stories from the driver and/or passengers. Asking general questions is common and a good indicator of what's going on whether drugs or slurred speech from drinking. However, many courts have ruled that other issues (except DUI) are supposed to be addresed AFTER the reason for the stop has been completed and after your license/ID has been returned to you. Everything after that point is voluntary. You do not have to give consent. Some have said "he searched my car for no reason" in actuality you gave him consent.

If you have nothing to hide than just tell him that you wish not to chat but you will sign the ticket or warning.

I also recommend that if you don't want your gun(s), whether concealed or stored, handled or questioned, don't advertise. Like stickers on the back window, etc..Some states require by law with a CCW permit that you inform the officer that you have a gun, and keep in mind he can secure that during the stop if he wants.

If an officer did not ask a few questions when his instincts or observations demanded he would be a disservice to the community. I'm sure that,however, after doing it over and over, he probably sounds monotone and impersonal. Also true, is that many officers are overzealous but not with the intention of "oh boy, I can't wait to go violate someone's rights!",it's the desire to take another drunk driver or drug runner,who was on the way to see your daughter, off the road.

Rob Pincus · December 20, 1998, 06:17 PM

I would add that I appreciate when someone tells me that they have a weapon on them or weapons in the car. I take it as a sign of respect and legitimacy. IMHO, it is better to tell an officer and risk a hassle (very small percentage) than NOT tell an officer and he finds out. This is a potentially "scary" thing for an offcier to discover.

When travelling I always inform another officer that I am armed or have weapons in the car. The one exception to that in the last few years has been when I was in NJ, which is like another planet.

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-Essayons

**Rich Lucibella** · December 20, 1998, 08:53 PM

Doc-
Yup, I was profiled after the stops.

Azone-
Nope. I don't think this thread has turned anti-cop or anti-America. I think it's stayed right on track as we try to balance the rights of LEO's to return home to their families at the end of the day and the rights of honest citizens to interact with LEO's without becoming an immediate suspect.

Unfortunately, we all break "policies" or laws from time to time...whether you choose to travel with enough cash to for an emergency emergency or you choose to be "tried by 12 rather than carried by 6" in the People's Republic of New Jersey. Or maybe you have a teenager who uses the car and may have left a "roach" in your ashtray.

Aren't these the issues the Congress is now wrangling with when it questions how far Law Enforcement should be allowed to go in "invading" a Citizen-President's privacy? Fact is, I don't stand to gain anything from a traffic stop...so, I'd like to see the rules of engagement limited as much as possible....after all, after the officers safety, aren't the Laws primarily designed to protect me?

In my case, as already stated, I offered both the officers the right to search the car. In retrospect, this was dumb as I was picking it up after 8 weeks from my lady in NC. I know her real well. But I don't know her friends very well. I have no idea what they may have dropped or hid in the car during a previous traffic stop.

Had the dogs been called, I would quite possibly have been out some considerable sum of money...since the dogs always "hit" on American currency...and I prefer not to depend on plastic when on the road.

These are difficult questions that have to be worked out before we see cameras on every street corner.
Regards,
Rich

Rob Pincus · December 20, 1998, 09:07 PM

Rich,

didn't you drive through Atlanta? Practically a camera on every corner there. And if I ever get pulled over there, I'll be sure to mention the time I had the misfortune of having to drive through "freak-nic" (The so called black daytona beach type spring break event). Only on TV reports have I seen a more blatant disregard for laws and civility.. and all that with state troopers and Atlanta PD at every exit of the interstate, just watching it all, by order of the mayor. I'm no prude, but it was medieval.

Anyway, our dog doesn't hit on cash (he barely hits at all).

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-Essayons

**Rich Lucibella** · December 20, 1998, 10:41 PM

Rob-
Correct, the dogs don't hit on cash. But they *do* hit on cocaine. Go to your local bank; withdraw $2,000 of US Currency in large bills; Check to see if your dogs hit on the money.

When it's in government (FDIC) posession, we all know that US Currency is 99% "tainted". When you walk out of the bank, however, it's reasonable cause for confiscation and a protracted legal battle titled "US Govt v. $2,000.00 of US Govt Funds". They actually take the money to trial...you don't even have to show up.

Rich
Rich

Rob Pincus · December 20, 1998, 10:53 PM

No, really. I've seen quite a few dogs fail that test. I wasn't just being sarcastic about our county dog.

I know what you mean though and it is pretty freakin' stupid.
Cash is today to the government what the barter economy of immagrant ghettos was to previous generations of state and city government. They see it as subversive to their monitoring of fiscal activity..ie- they might not be getting every penny they want in taxes.

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HS · December 21, 1998, 03:54 AM

Dont know if this is worth mentioning but here goes. About 1985 I was pulled over by the Police and informed that they had information that there was drugs in my car. There wasn't, but they did a half-hearted pi$$ant search.
In Brisbane Aus. you can NOT find out who makes such an allegation....so the Police can (make up) seach with NO probable cause if they don't like the way you or your car looks .
So after the "search" I immediately went to my closest friends house and pulled apart my car LOOKING for ANYTHING that may have been "planted" there.
Luckily there wasn't anything but I think you guys can think of what was going through my mind at the time !

So...how goes it in your neck o' the woods ?
If a LEO pulled YOU over, do you have the RIGHT to DEMAND PROOF of an allegation of being in possession of drugs etc. or are you in the same boat as I was?

December 17, 1998, 04:22 AM	#1
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	I drove 9 hours back from NC to South FL today (okay, it's an 11 hour drive). I was stopped twice...SC and FL. Good guys in both cases...one warning and one ticket; both gave me a break; both were gentlemen. But here's the issue. Both cops asked if I was carrying any large sums of money (among other questions). This struck me as strange...naturally I said, "Nope, just waht's in my pocket"....course what's in my pocket on a road trip might be considered \"large" by them; I'm not sure. Now I'm not looking for a "flame the law" thread here....I hadn't shaved in 3 days; was wearing a heavy leather Harley jacket and driving a semi-expensive sports car registered to a Florida corp. But I'm wondering if this is becoming a standard question in highway stops when there's a bit of suspicion? Rich

December 17, 1998, 07:29 AM	#2
Bushwhacker Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 1999 Location: Somewhere in USA Posts: 323	Rich were you on I-95? In recent years there has been alot of drug traficking along I-95 and this is where they LEO catch alot The money part well goes hand in hand but I've seen them search tractor-trailers to m/c's and the way the person is dressed has alot to do with it. I interested in what the LEO members have to say. I got stopped one time on I-10 going to fla. and the two deputies took my car and the trailer apart.I think the time of year had something to do with it Mardi-gra location just east of New Orleans. [This message has been edited by FLYERM14 (edited 12-17-98).]

December 17, 1998, 07:58 AM	#3
. Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: My wife's house... Posts: 2,659	Profile Bro, profile. Keep it low, or drive a ratty old pickup truck. Large sums of cash is considered a target. It is one of the characteristics that fit the profile of an operative in the drug distribution industry. It also can be confiscated and depending on the circumstances may be forfeit to the enforcement agency, hence another enticing "funding" target. Local fella collects tractors and steam implements. He goes to auctions around the country, and usually carries $10-15K to these events for spot buys. He got stopped for a burned-out tail-light bulb, answered the questions truthfully, spent the evening in jail and 6-months and lots of legal fees to recover his cash. The banking industry's move to eliminate the use of cash, would generate better financial info and that would better profile illegal financial transactions (see the thread in DC's Forum)

December 17, 1998, 09:50 AM	#4
Michael Carlin Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Fredericksburg, VA USA Posts: 193	Rich, The question itself is a one way deal. You are anxious to get on your way, if you refuse to answer, the man takes your stuff apart. If you had said yes, the man takes your stuff apart. If there is a large sum of cash, he will confiscate it on the spot and charge you with something. Had he given you a Miranda warning? I ask because an affirmative answer will undoubtedly result in Mykl's friend's scenario. This profile business is very violative of the right to move about freely. I am no defender of drug trafficking, but it appears to me that an enormous chunk of our rights are compromised in increasing efforts to prohibit drugs. This is in the name of public safety, (does this sound familiar?) and there is no one in the main stream willing to stand up and say prohibition does not seem to work. Ah, well that is my rant for the day. yours in marksmanship michael

December 17, 1998, 01:07 PM	#5
longhair Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 1998 Location: CSA Posts: 632	Michael, i agree w/ you. the rights we have forfeited because of the war on drug are many. now if you fit a certain "profile" that's probable cause to stop you. you're automatically guilty, as decribed in this thread about the guy that buys farm equipment. since when is it against the law to have money???? and i guess i fit some kind of profile w/ longhair, beard, etc., so when i get stopped, ( it's hard to drive 55 ) quite often i get "special" attention. now this is not always the case, but often enough. i choose to look they way i do, the way most people do, but if you're "pretty" like me you must be willing to take the heat for it.. ------------------ fiat justitia

December 17, 1998, 05:55 PM	#6
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Okay, I may get flamed here, but: LEOs are judgemental. There I said it. I almost got arrested once because a local LEO pulled my over in a brand new Bronco with a California Temp Tag. I was about 2 miles from my house and I had just driven all the way back from California in about 40 hours. I looked like ***, I had a Glock in a shoulder holster under my jacket, which I told him about. This was before I was a credentialed LEO, but I had a permit. I had two longuns in racks in the back side windows. the officer tried to tell me that I didn't live where my ID said I did and that the vehicle was illegal, since I was a Tennessee resident I couldn't* have a truck with a california temp tag. Obviously, the guy was all wrong, but I sorta understand where he was coming from. He called me in and one of his fellow officers recognized my name and showed up while he was trying to figure out waht to do. BTW- I had been going 55 in a 45, based on his expert opinion...he didn't even have radar! I concur with the I-95 theory. especially if it was the S.C. officer who asked about the money. When I get pulled over with out of state tags on the East Coast I almost always get asked questions about the multitude of gear I have crammed into my vehicle. Where I am going? Am I travelling with any valuables. yada, yada. I am not ready to say that it is a big conspiracy to stop the flow of cash or to confiscate everything of value, but as an LEO, I understand that those are the kinds of questions that can lead to interesting answers and subsequent PC to do a search if the circumstances are suspicious. I don't like it, but it is reality. I get pulled over a lot. The latest time was in West Virginia, but the officer wlaked up to the car and said, "Sir, can I see some ID, I'm giving you a warning." I like West Virginia! ------------------ *-Essayons*

December 17, 1998, 07:24 PM	#7
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	Rich fit into a "profile." Scruffy guy with a nice car... must have money but not a profesional job. Yeah, that would have gotten you pulled over in Virgina as well. Especially on I-95. Richmond had been putting up Road Blocks all over the city last year. They didn't actually stop every one. But if you fit into a prophile you were waved to stop in a search area. One day I was let through under scrutiny... the next - I hadnt shaved either... I was waved over. The officer was proffesional enough I guess... for one violating my civil rights... Once I produced my badge I was okay to him. The us verses them mentality... I was waved to stop because of the Shotgun News on the back seat! Yeah LEOs are judgemental... Innocent until proven guilty is fine in the court room... But as a cadet in the academy we were taught we never arrested or pulled over anyone who wasn't guilty. Admittedly I was the same way... If a guy didnt look right, fit a profile, or just looked like a jerk - I stopped him. Now, I am one of THEM... and have been stopped many times. I wear a black jacket and blue jeans. I have a goatee. I even still drive like I am on duty (that is a bad habit I am trying to break). As a result, I am a menace to the public and the officer pulling me over is stopping my mad cap crime spree! Good Work Officer Pogue! ------------------ Kodiac Kenetic Defense Institute [email protected]

December 17, 1998, 07:55 PM	#8
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I have heard several times lately of areas that have enacted laws allowing the confiscation of large sums of money if the possessee cannot prove that it came from legitimate sources. No crimes charged, just pure theft and abrogation of your Constitutional rights. Personally- I tend to be a mite excitable- I tend to think like this: I am guaranteed the right, by statement and inference, to my property unless the government can prove I obtained it illegally. Anyone seeking to take away my Constitutional rights, by definition, would be a criminal. In this case, we have an armed criminal trying to rob me. Now, I don't want Rich to shut me down for any perceived suggestion of endorsement of tactics most would find questionable, but this is a case of armed robbery. I know how I would treat armed robbers. [This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 12-18-98).]

December 17, 1998, 08:32 PM	#9
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	The problem is that mere possession of large amounts of cash is considered defacto evidence of wrongdoing and you must prove its legit, then it takes weeks to months to get it back and likely cost you a bundle in legal fees besides. This us vs them mentality that LEO has is indicative of the rapid decline of this country and its not going to get better. ------------------ *"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"*

December 17, 1998, 10:41 PM	#10
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I have read that in Louisiana, when they "arrest the money", 50% goes to the state treasury; 25% to the local state judge's office; and 25% to the arresting jurisdiction. You can then plead in the state judge's court for the return of your money. Good #$%@$ luck! Low profile, low profile, low profile. That's reality, in this land of the free. I shave daily. Clean clothes. Plain-jane vehicle. Drive with traffic, generally two to seven mph above highway speed limits. It aggravates me that a pro-cop guy like myself has to worry about that one percent (1/2%?)which might be overzealous Gestapo. More and more states are passing reciprocity laws concerning concealed-carry permits. So far, the reports I've had indicate that when one is stopped for trivial traffic stuff, there is a "You're one of us" sort of reaction from most officers, when they see the CHL. There's a bit of hope. About the only thing I know for Joe Citizen to do is keep on bitchin' to the elected types, at state & federal level. Unending pressure. Never quit, never! And donate what you can to various pro-gun groups. Some are better than others, of course, but they add to our chorus. Best regards to all...Art

December 18, 1998, 01:18 AM	#11
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Wow- Lot's of good comments here. Let me try to respond in general; I apologize for the length in advance. I'm aware of the resurrection of 100 year old piracy laws which have been used to confiscate assets. I'm also aware of the abuses that have occured when expected asset forfeiture finds itself into an agency or LEO budget. And, certainly, "profile" has something to do with my recent experience. OTOH, this is the US of A and I find it embarassing to explain to the uninitiated that you should dress up when on a trip; that you should not drive a sports or luxury car if you have earned one; that you should not walk around with your money in your pocket....all for fear of "looking" suspicious. When stopped in SC, I was asked if I had any weapons...I stated a pistol in the glove box (legal in journey). For the officer's safety, I was asked out of the car....that's fair (he wasn't speeding, I was). I was never informed of my rights....rather I was engaged in a "casual" conversation as the officer wrote a warning for breaking the speed limit by +15mph. "What kind of work do you do?"; "Where are you coming from?"; "Do you have any other weapons in the car?". "Do you have any alcohol or drugs in the car?". "Are you carrying any large sums of money?" When I exited the vehicle, I locked it with the key remote and pocketed the key, waiting to see who I was dealing with. In response to his queries, I offered up a Mad Dog Pygmy Atak II on my belt (5" fixed blade)...he wasn't concerned. I assured him there wasn't even a beer in the car. When he asked about the $$, I explained that I'd been advised never to volunteer access to my auto but that he was welcome to search it. The officer explained that it was SOP to call in the dogs when people refused to answer and let me go. All in all, he was a good guy who gave me a break and should be commended. In FL I left the car for dinner. I was later pulled over at night. I immediately attached my seat belt when I saw the cherry top. He asked for my License and Reg. As I went to release the seat belt, I realized, I'd expose the 1911 on my hip. I explained the problem and the cop was alert but unphazed (FL is still Free America)...he was on my passenger side and only asked that I pull my jacket back to reveal the weapon before reaching for my wallet. He never disarmed me...so, he obviously didn't mistrust me. He asked me to keep my hands on the wheel while he went back to his car. I turned all the interior lights on and complied. When he came back with a ticket (chopped 10mph off the speed), he asked why I was carrying a gun. "Because I can". He actually got a bit defensive in assuring me that that was acceptable. Then he popped the question, "Are you carrying a lot of money or something?". Again I got off with a break. In short, good guys...questionable policies. That's the reason for my post. Rich ps: I'm carrying a .45, a fixed blade, a Sebeza. Got my emergency survival kit in the trunk. Do I sound like the type of guy who left town with $300 in his pocket? That's the other reason for my post.

December 18, 1998, 09:12 AM	#12
VDoe Junior Member Join Date: December 1, 1998 Location: Lexington, SC, USA Posts: 6	Just a little more info for those who travel I-95 through S.C. My brother-in-law was a State Trooper here for many years and I have several friends who are troopers. S.C. has a multi-jurisdictional "team" that patrols I-95 specifically using the "profile" method to try and spot drug runners. They do just as y'all have suggested...pull someone over for speeding or improper lights, then if they fit the profile or act overly nervous/agitated ask if they can search the car. I can't remember what they do if you refuse, but I can ask if someone wants to know. This is a dangerous situation for the LEO on that team. I had a good friend, Mark Coates, who was on the team. He had pulled a man over for speeding on I-95 near the Hardeeville exit and he fit the profile y'all have been mentioning...scruffy, lot of stuff in the car, etc. The video camera in the patrol car caught all the action. Unfortunately, Mark used very bad judgment/technique when he searched the man, squatting down to search his legs/ankles. The man pushed Mark to the ground, drew out a .22 pistol and began firing. Some of the bullets were stopped by Mark's vest, but as he was drawing his .357 revolver he exposed his side and one .22 went into his side. Mark managed to fire once or twice, hitting the BG in the stomach (I believe), who subsequently stopped firing. Mark died in the helicopter on the way to the hospital. The BG lived, unfortunately. Is the miniscule amount of drugs stopped through this type of aggressive "profiling" worth the risk to the LEO's life and the potential loss of our rights as American citizens? I don't know...I just don't know. Chris

December 18, 1998, 10:07 AM	#13
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I apologize if my prior post gave the impression that I am anti-LEO. I am not, and if I had not moved to be closer to my fiance years ago, I would be a police officer in Alabama right now. I do have serious problems with any who would abuse the power that has been entrusted to them. I am grateful for the chance to relate to the conscientious LEO who grace this forum.

December 18, 1998, 11:51 AM	#14
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I think that we shouldn't read too much into the question itself. After all, some people might not consider $1000 cash "large sums", and some people might think it is a king's ransom to have in your pocket. Many LEOs have a stadard battery of questions they ask to try to gather information, especially if you fit a "profile." An LEO might ask you if you've seen anybody suspicious, just to watch your response. Does this mean that they are trying to turn the population against itself? No. In our county, we only put a dog on a car if we have already found or been told about drugs in a vehicle or there is a very compelling reason to suspect there are drugs present. Along the line, several years ago, part of my job was to transport "large sums" of cash. It was all legal, but not simply associated with depositing it in the bank. For many reasons the owner of this corporation liked to do business in cash. It was pretty common for me to have $5000 or more in various pockets, as I often ride a motorcycle when the weather allows. Now, picture this: Young guy, Harley painted with 2nd Amendment themes (skeleton arms holding desert eagles etc.,) with $10k in his pocket. I got pulled over in this condition twice. Once I knew the officer, once I got a real hassle. Neither time was the cash mentioned, but I informed the officers of my firearm immediately, as is my habit. Is this low-profile, no. Would I do it today, probably not. Unfortunately, I picked up some "bad" habits from my mentor who liked to do business in cash. Now, so do I. There is nothing like handing someone or receiving from some one a good old fashioned pile of money. Try paying a plumber in cash (some of them that are not independent won't be allowed to accept cash!), or go to the bank before you buy that next $1000+ item and count out the money in 100's and 50's in stead of writing a check. It is a completely different buying experience. Of course, don't do any transactions at the bank of $10K or more, or you'll have to fill out special forms at the bank. Several times I've made two or three trips in a day to avoid the $10K marker. Not to avoid any tax liability, but to keep from having to fill out the forms. I understand that the "cieling" on unexplained transactions might be lowered, rumor has it to less than $2500. Rather insidiously the gov't has instilled a distrust of cash, but it is really unfounded. It is also not much more than skin deep for most people. After all, if there is someone that you don't really trust are you going to accept a check from them? No, of course not, but you'll take cash everytime, right? Cash is good. Cash is fun. Cash is your friend. Checking fees are bad, credit card interest is bad. ------------------ *-Essayons*

December 18, 1998, 02:00 PM	#15
NAD Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 1998 Posts: 169	It seems to me that if questioned by an LEO during a traffic stop as to whether I have large sums of cash or other valuables I would say no regardless if I had 10 or 10,000 dollars in cash. I am not obligated to incriminate myself nor am I under any oath to tell the truth. If the Leo searches my car and finds $10,000 in cash it wouldn't have mattered if I had lied about it or was truthfull. It would still be confiscated. Unless things have changed, I always thought that money was "legal tender" and must be accepted for payment of goods and services in this country. I am always annoyed by certain businesses not accepting cash as payment or stipulating they cannot provide change for anything over a 20 dollar bill. People do not have to accept checks, credit, seashells, rocks, etc., but they must accept cash. The reasoning behind this is paper money doesn't have any real value and if people loose faith in it our entire monetary system would collaspe.

December 18, 1998, 02:04 PM	#16
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Seems like this was brought up a a few years ago. Fed Ex had (possibly still has) a policy in some of its drop off centers (not just the door-to-door guys) that they would not accept cash. It was brought up that the bills printed by the U.S. "must" be accepted for payment of goods or services. I don't know if they were ever taken to court over it, but I would really like for the Supreme Court to address this issue... the sooner the better.

December 18, 1998, 02:46 PM	#17
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	The idea of Large Sum of Money is different to who ever your talking to... It used to be that to me a large sum of mony was over $1000.00. Now that figure has dropped to under $100.00. The VALUE of the individual dollar has changed for me. Especially this time a year. In Utah a large sum would be over 500 bucks on average... In Park City that sum is probably over $5000.00. I havent heard of any Utah officer using the old piracy laws to confiscate cash... but in the Richmond, VA area they sure did... A 17 year old kid still in school with a couple grand in cash - mostly 10s and 20s driving a new lexus after 2AM on a school night and the address on the liscense is in section 8 housing? That would raise a serious question in my mind. But I feel unless he fit the description of a wanted subject or there was other PC for a crime having been commited... I feel it would be a violation of his civil rights to confiscate any thing... This would of course been subject to not finding any thing after searching per subject's consent. ------------------ Kodiac Kenetic Defense Institute [email protected]

December 19, 1998, 12:34 PM	#18
Doc Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 80	Rich, are you suggesting that you were profiled? We all know that that is illegal and/or improper. Do we profile? Yes. Can it be proven that we do? No. You were speeding, Joe Blow made an improper lane change, John Doe had a dim tail light. Were they profiled? Yes. Were they stopped because they fit the profile? Yes. Was the given reason for the stop, "fit the profile"? No.

December 20, 1998, 12:37 PM	#19
AZONE Junior Member Join Date: December 13, 1998 Posts: 8	It's funny how most of the threads end up somehow "anti cop or government". The most important responsibilty of any "highway patrol" is traffic safety:speeders, etc...it is also an important responsibilty for any police agency. All the cases of drug running, etc involve inconsistent stories from the driver and/or passengers. Asking general questions is common and a good indicator of what's going on whether drugs or slurred speech from drinking. However, many courts have ruled that other issues (except DUI) are supposed to be addresed AFTER the reason for the stop has been completed and after your license/ID has been returned to you. Everything after that point is voluntary. You do not have to give consent. Some have said "he searched my car for no reason" in actuality you gave him consent. If you have nothing to hide than just tell him that you wish not to chat but you will sign the ticket or warning. I also recommend that if you don't want your gun(s), whether concealed or stored, handled or questioned, don't advertise. Like stickers on the back window, etc..Some states require by law with a CCW permit that you inform the officer that you have a gun, and keep in mind he can secure that during the stop if he wants. If an officer did not ask a few questions when his instincts or observations demanded he would be a disservice to the community. I'm sure that,however, after doing it over and over, he probably sounds monotone and impersonal. Also true, is that many officers are overzealous but not with the intention of "oh boy, I can't wait to go violate someone's rights!",it's the desire to take another drunk driver or drug runner,who was on the way to see your daughter, off the road.

December 20, 1998, 06:17 PM	#20
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I would add that I appreciate when someone tells me that they have a weapon on them or weapons in the car. I take it as a sign of respect and legitimacy. IMHO, it is better to tell an officer and risk a hassle (very small percentage) than NOT tell an officer and he finds out. This is a potentially "scary" thing for an offcier to discover. When travelling I always inform another officer that I am armed or have weapons in the car. The one exception to that in the last few years has been when I was in NJ, which is like another planet. ------------------ *-Essayons*

December 20, 1998, 08:53 PM	#21
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Doc- Yup, I was profiled after the stops. Azone- Nope. I don't think this thread has turned anti-cop or anti-America. I think it's stayed right on track as we try to balance the rights of LEO's to return home to their families at the end of the day and the rights of honest citizens to interact with LEO's without becoming an immediate suspect. Unfortunately, we all break "policies" or laws from time to time...whether you choose to travel with enough cash to for an emergency emergency or you choose to be "tried by 12 rather than carried by 6" in the People's Republic of New Jersey. Or maybe you have a teenager who uses the car and may have left a "roach" in your ashtray. Aren't these the issues the Congress is now wrangling with when it questions how far Law Enforcement should be allowed to go in "invading" a Citizen-President's privacy? Fact is, I don't stand to gain anything from a traffic stop...so, I'd like to see the rules of engagement limited as much as possible....after all, after the officers safety, aren't the Laws primarily designed to protect me? In my case, as already stated, I offered both the officers the right to search the car. In retrospect, this was dumb as I was picking it up after 8 weeks from my lady in NC. I know her real well. But I don't know her friends very well. I have no idea what they may have dropped or hid in the car during a previous traffic stop. Had the dogs been called, I would quite possibly have been out some considerable sum of money...since the dogs always "hit" on American currency...and I prefer not to depend on plastic when on the road. These are difficult questions that have to be worked out before we see cameras on every street corner. Regards, Rich

December 20, 1998, 09:07 PM	#22
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Rich, didn't you drive through Atlanta? Practically a camera on every corner there. And if I ever get pulled over there, I'll be sure to mention the time I had the misfortune of having to drive through "freak-nic" (The so called black daytona beach type spring break event). Only on TV reports have I seen a more blatant disregard for laws and civility.. and all that with state troopers and Atlanta PD at every exit of the interstate, just watching it all, by order of the mayor. I'm no prude, but it was medieval. Anyway, our dog doesn't hit on cash (he barely hits at all). ------------------ *-Essayons*

December 20, 1998, 10:41 PM	#23
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Rob- Correct, the dogs don't hit on cash. But they do hit on cocaine. Go to your local bank; withdraw $2,000 of US Currency in large bills; Check to see if your dogs hit on the money. When it's in government (FDIC) posession, we all know that US Currency is 99% "tainted". When you walk out of the bank, however, it's reasonable cause for confiscation and a protracted legal battle titled "US Govt v. $2,000.00 of US Govt Funds". They actually take the money to trial...you don't even have to show up. Rich Rich

December 20, 1998, 10:53 PM	#24
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	No, really. I've seen quite a few dogs fail that test. I wasn't just being sarcastic about our county dog. I know what you mean though and it is pretty freakin' stupid. Cash is today to the government what the barter economy of immagrant ghettos was to previous generations of state and city government. They see it as subversive to their monitoring of fiscal activity..ie- they might not be getting every penny they want in taxes. ------------------ *-Essayons*

December 21, 1998, 03:54 AM	#25
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Dont know if this is worth mentioning but here goes. About 1985 I was pulled over by the Police and informed that they had information that there was drugs in my car. There wasn't, but they did a half-hearted pi$$ant search. In Brisbane Aus. you can NOT find out who makes such an allegation....so the Police can (make up) seach with NO probable cause if they don't like the way you or your car looks . So after the "search" I immediately went to my closest friends house and pulled apart my car LOOKING for ANYTHING that may have been "planted" there. Luckily there wasn't anything but I think you guys can think of what was going through my mind at the time ! So...how goes it in your neck o' the woods ? If a LEO pulled YOU over, do you have the RIGHT to DEMAND PROOF of an allegation of being in possession of drugs etc. or are you in the same boat as I was?