Concealed Carry

[Caeca Invidia Es]

I was wondering what everyone here thought about Concealed Carry Permits. Are they worth getting?

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I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.

[loknload]

I have had one since I was of legal age to get one. Is it worth while, It sure is. I don't carry all the time but when I feel the need it's my option.

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gun control is people control



[This message has been edited by loknload (edited December 02, 1999).]

[Ulfilas]

The advantages of CCW permits include:

State-sanctioned permission to carry a gun in public and have it ready for defense if you need it (in FL it is a 3rd-degree felony to carry concealed without a permit). Something we should have already, but that's another argument.

Not having to wait 3-7 days for a gun you purchased (something you don't have to do anyway if you already own a gun).

It's also a statement. It says you have no criminal record, are of sound mind, have firearms training, and are basically considered an upright and responsible citizen.

jth

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Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.

[Caeca Invidia Es]

You guys are quick =o)

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I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.

[CMOS]

CCW is merely insurance. You may never need it, but if you do, and don't have it - you're dead.

For me, it's a personal statement that says,
"I alone am responsible for the safety of my family and myself."

CMOS

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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!

[RWK]

I certainly agree with all the prior postings to this thread and with the advantages cited for obtaining a carry permit. I suggest that there is one additional -- and significant -- benefit.

In many states handguns can be carried under limited circumstances without a permit. For example, in Virginia a handgun can theoretically be carried unconcealed; it can also be transported to/from the range, etc. In Texas, there is an old "traveling" exemption that some have interpreted as being "three counties from home". These are only a couple examples of the many individual state laws governing handguns.

However, many of these local rules leave some key unanswered questions for LEO discretion/determination. By having a carry permit, these subjective judgements are generally eliminated. That, alone, may be sufficient reason for the handgun target shooter to acquire a permit.

[ckurts]

What all those other folks said, especially Ulfilas and CMOS.

I like your tag line, but I like the one that says "I would rather live on my feet than die on my knees" better.

[TheBluesMan]

I believe that concealed carry is the only logical way to assure the security of yourself and that of your family. If you rely on the police to protect you, chances are that you will die waiting for them to arrive. There just aren't enough of those fine folks to go around.

Just yesterday a 33 year old woman was shot and killed in her garage on a rural farm road not five minutes from my house. She was on her way to work. The killer is still on the loose. The poor woman had no chance and leaves two elementary school-aged children and a husband behind. The only way that she could have defended herself is if she had a gun too. Maybe she wouldn't have survived, but at least the odds would have been even.

Tragically, Ohio does not allow concealed carry. This mother of two may still be alive today if she was allowed to arm herself.

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security." - Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
http://www.ofcc.net

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RKBA!

"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsey Clark

"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale

[sbryce]

Ditto, and one other thing.

It has been clearly demonstrated that when there are a lot of armed citizens, the crime rate drops dramatically. Getting a CCW, if nothing else, sends a message to would-be BG's that increasing numbers of their prospective victims have the ability to shoot back. Eventually, the BG's will get the message and seek employment in a field with fewer inherent risks.

If you do get a CCW, you must

1) Really carry
2) Train and practice with your gun
3) Be willing to use it if necessary

If you doubt whether you could really shoot someone in a life threatening situation, or if you have a chip on your shoulder and you are looking for trouble, or just want to feel macho, then don't get the CCW.

[Ulfilas]

Good point, sbryce. Kind of reminds me of a quote I saw on ctdonath's website: "A pacifist with a machine gun isn't armed; he's just holding it."

Make your CCW worth something--practice.

On the other hand, CCWs do NOT place you above the law. One of the things that came along with my permit in the mail was a brochure from the FL Dept. of Licensing. The first line of it was "A permit to carry is not a permit to use your weapon."

Like sbryce said, if you're given over to a hot temper, spare yourself and others the potential grief.

jth

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Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.



[This message has been edited by Ulfilas (edited December 02, 1999).]

[Jeff OTMG]

loknload, if you think you are going into a situation that you need a gun, DON'T GO! My suggestion is that if you have a CHL carry your gun all the time. At least that way if you ever do have to shoot you won't have to justify why you decided to carry into that particular situation. Taking a gun to where you know there is going to be a problem can be premeditated murder in some scenarios.

[LawDog]

CIE and loknload, listen to Jeff.
I like the CHL/CCW. I fought hard for it in Texas. BUT:
There are people who will get a CHL/CCW, and decide that they now have a right to walk into the Bucket O' Blood Saloon in Terlingua, Texas and not take any guff from anyone.
Once you get your CHL/CCW you MUST avoid situations where you WILL be required to use that weapon. Taking another life can be a devasting thing, emotionally and mentally. You WILL be mauled by the legal system, both criminal and civil. And you provide more grist for the gun control mill.

If you are mature and responsible, get a CHL/CCW. Carry a pistol. Carry it proudly.
But, (I hate sounding like a comic book) never, EVER forget the awesome responsibility represented by that firearm on your hip.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited December 02, 1999).]

[John/az2]

Someone stated on this board once that the aquisition of a CCW/CCL is an aknowledgment to the government that we do not have the right to carry concealed, but that this right is indeed a priviledge granted to us by our own government. And that it is also one that can be removed from us without recourse.

Practice civil disobedience, if you can afford it. If you can't and you value your freedom enough, then get to the point where you can afford it.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited December 02, 1999).]

[Jordan]

Thank you John! I was reading this thread SPECIFICALY to see if anyone would point this out. You are absolutely right and thank you for coming through.

Caeca: Asking the State for permission to bear arms IS "living on your knees". Your signature line is great.. are you willing to live up to it?

[westex]

I don't disagree with anything anyone has said so far. Up until about 3 yrs. ago I had carried "without legal sanction" for about 30 yrs. When I had the option to carry "with legal sanction" I debated with myself if I was knuckling under if I did so. I decided the purpose of carrying was to protect myself and family and that by going legal I was doing just that, physicaly, legally as well as financialy. I'm still not 100% happy with compromising my convictions but I do feel much more as ease on a daily basis.

Someday I may regret having my picture, fingerprints, etc. on file with the FBI as a right-wing, militia prone, gun nut but if that time ever comes I guess I'll have to make up my own rules as the game is played out.

RKBA!

[Caeca Invidia Es]

John/az2, This is actually why I posted this question to begin with. It seems to me to be more about getting gun owners to register one way or another then anything else. Does anyone know the possible fines for carrying without a permit in Utah?

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I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.

[sbryce]

76-10-504(1)(b) says this is a class A misdemeanor. I don't know what the penalty is. Any store that sells guns should also sell a book called Utah Gun Law, the Good, the Bad, the Ugly. This should tell you all you need to know. Don't look for it at the library. I got some pretty wierd looks when I asked a librarian to find a copy for me.

[Caeca Invidia Es]

I get wierd looks just for walking into a library.

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I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.

[George Hill]

While I am unsure of the exact penalties for Concealed Carry with out the permit - I know they are stiff. The trick is, Dont Get Caught!
Carry every where you can. If you venture to places where there is a lot of officers - dont carry there. Police could "make you" or you could "print" or some one makes you. If you dont want to go unheeled - dont go there.

I dont go into post offices - where its a federal no-no... Instead I go to Smith's where they take mail and sell stamps and stuff, and there is no "Gun Policy."

Churches are different. They ask you not to carry in church - but some times I do. If I know I am going places before or after... I carry - or I leave it in the car.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?

[Dave McC]

Some observations and thoughts...

First, Md has some stiff gun laws, and our Atty General has called for the eventual confiscation of all handguns.

However, all the places that have "Liberalized"(pardon the term) carry laws show a marked decrease in violent crime. Usually only 10% of those eligible do carry after going through the procedures, but that's enough to convince the BGs it's a bad idea to be BGs.

Also, I polled 7 police officers a while back that I knew socially,from Cub Scouts, PTA, or just neighbors. They varied from a State Trooper to a B-more Detective,and all weren't rookies. A street smart bunch,IMO. None thought a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen made their job harder or more perilous. All took the opinion that a trained, responsible individual carrying was in most ways, a free cop.

OTOH, it's my philosophy that anyplace that's dangerous enough for it to be a good idea for ME(Combat vet,retired Correctional Officer and Firearms instructor) is a very bad place for my family, most of whom do not carry, for various reasons. Avoidance is hardly ever a bad idea.

[DMSC]

I have a CCW permit and rarely go with out a weapon. It's not what I expect to happen that makes me carry, it's the UNexpected that I want to be prepared for!

It's also nice that I didn't have to wait on the NICS check the last time I bought a gun!

[BigG]

Good answer, JohnAZ2! Do whut ya wanna, jes don' git cot!

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG

[Paul Revere]

To fully and legally, exercise one's Right to "KEEP AND BEAR ARMS", one does not NEED a permission slip, license, permit, or any other type of government stamp of approval.

Carry a copy of the Second Amendment in your wallet. THAT is your permit!

[loknload]

jeff and LawDog, Good point and point well taken. I never gave that angle a thought. I never go into any area with my family that I know that you really don't go there,But there are places that are a little more apt for crime than others. I don't alwys have one on me but I do have one at hand.

An armed man is always a gentlemen.

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gun control is people control

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I wrote this for somewhere else but after
reading some response, thought I would share:

Quite often, people ask the group how they can get a CHL or CCW/permit in a given location. Sometimes they ask if they should get one at all.

Usually the group supplies the appropriate info or links for the question.

However, there are usually a wave of negative responses that go like this:


1. If you get such, you will be on the Government list and when
the time comes, the UN, black heliocopters, etc. will come for you and your gun.

2. You are some sort of liberal, commie coward. GAWD ALMIGHY and the Second Amendment give you the right to carry a gun.

Only a wussy-ass wimp would bother to get a permit. You are giving up your RIGHTS.

3. Hermeneutic analyses by me (the poster) or by a team of Talmudic scholars has determined that despite the opinion of everyone else
in the state and the recommendations of LEOs, AGs, instructors, etc.,some nuance in state law gives you the right to carry. We
have recently seen a thread with this particular idiocy (comment here is about another list - GM).
This is combined with the listers suggestion that you be the one to use his or her brilliant but amateur analysis in court.

To be rather blunt: These reasons are well-intentioned but misguided or
malacious bull****.

Here's why you should get a permit or CHL.

1. You can carry legally. While some states have certain restrictions,you are certainly more legal than those who carry illegally.

a. This reduces the chance of arrest. Jail, expense, a record, losing
gun rights for the future.

b. This reduces the chance of going through a felony stop. Most
police think people who carry illegally are bad. The police are not going to give you a donut and yell - Three Cheers for the RKBA. They might treat you badly.

c. When challenged by the police, there are suggested routines for the licensed carrier to do, to avoid conflict. As unlicensed, you can't. As a CHL holder, I can tell the officer that I have a gun
in the glove compartment. Most everyone I know in TX has found that most officers are polite and deal well with the CHL. If I don't have the CHL and I tell the officer I have a gun - expect handcuffs at the
minimum. In the worst case scenarios, guns are draw on you when the gun is
discovered. You might get hurt or dead.

d. When you are arrested for illegal carry, you become an official gun nut. Does this influence your job? It might. You have to report such on some job applications. For some professions, you might get the boot.

Hey - DON'T BE A WUSSY - ! Fight it! I'm sure a post to the group will bring LOT'S O CASH for your defense fund! Sure.

2. The Government is coming for you.
There are guy is Texas who everything they see the Good Humour ice cream
truck post to TX.guns that the UN is in Bastrop and are coming for your guns.

I agree that gun registration is a tool that might be used to seize guns and that precedents exist for this action.

However, most of us are probably on the lists already.
Are you a member of a major gun related organization?

Did you ever subscribe to a gun periodical?

Get a hunting license?

Buy a related product with a credit card?

Post on the Internet about firearms.

They gotcha - big boy.

If the confiscation order comes down, will you neighbors and co-workers turn you in? I could name several people who would do that, either as they are anti-gun, would want a reward or are malacious. I've been there on this one. I once knew pretty well a major figure in a world class scandal. Even though, it was several years before said person engaged in the behavior, several
idiots at work called the local press to tell them I knew the person and I had to fend off the press for awhile. I'm sure lots of folks would turn you in given the right circumstances.

If the list is real big - maybe they won't come for everyone on the list.

3. Breaking the law is a bad role model. How can you argue for law and order if you argue to break it? You say you are justified by the RKBA mission given to you by GAWD ALMIGHTY.

Never criticize those who commit illegal actions pro or con abortion, marijuana, the Viet Nam war, cocaine, pornography or the like.
If HCI surrounds the gun store and pelts you with eggs when you exit, don't bother to call the police - they were following a high moral
cause.
Are there some higher moral causes that lead one to break the law as the Freedom Riders did in the South in the fight against
segregation?

Be sure you are OK with this before you go the route of civil disobedience.

If you do, shouldn't you have a public display of your civil disobedience
or do you just slink around with your gun hidden?

4. Getting a CHL increases the probability you will carry and increases your
safety. Despite the blowhard friends of GAWD ALMIGHTY who claim that they break the law - I doubt it. Being illegal would give you pause.
Be legal and carrying is no longer fearful and becomes second nature.

Given the success rate of gun armed self defense - you make yourself safer.
When some 'Vermont only' activist argues against CHL laws - think about
this. We want people to carry to be safe. Lott says 4000 women a year prevent rape with handguns. Thus, we need the RKBA to be able to have guns to prevent crimes like rape. If you don't allow carry you allow rape.

The "Vermont only" or "2 Amend. gives us the right..." crowd would argue against passage of CHL laws. This will decrease the number of
people who will carry. It will keep in force anticarry laws. More women will get raped while you wait for GAWD ALMIGHTY or the next
revolution to turn the USA into Vermont.

5. The Benefits of CHL for the RKBA outweigh the confiscation list risk.
a. Take a stand and show the world that Americans wish to carry arms
to defend themselves. If every gun owner that could, would get a CHL - such numbers would convince politicians that this is a mass movement and opinion to be reckoned with.
Gun folks are being marginalized as right wing loons, animal blasters and other low lifes who slink around in the dark, wearing Nazi shirts. Appeals to break the law, just reinforce this.
I read a similar analysis by several other folks in various editiorial sources, like Mike Venturino.

I suppose I take a risk in being legally licensed. The UN might come for me. But, I take that chance. I demonstrate that I want
and need to possess a firearm.

In other situations when discriminatory laws and propositions were put on state ballots, I joined with other psychologists in signing
ads that were put in the major newspapers. Some people said aren't you scared that loonies might come for you? You take your chances.

In Denmark, the King put on a yellow Star of David and defied the Nazis. You can slink around without a CHL and wait for the UN
or you can say that you are a legal gunowner, want to carry and not be scared to let the world know it.

b. CHLs stop crime. This is convincingly demonstrated by Kleck and Lott.
This is the only argument that convinces centrist folks who may be convinced to be anti-RKBA.

Reading survey work, some survey work I've done and talking to non-gun folk lead me to believe that the center is starting to believe that guns are a priori dangerous and removing them will make them safer.
They DON'T CARE about 2nd Amend. arguments. The Bill of Rights was written by people and not by God. The authors thought such rights made for a better society. They can be changed if the US populace want it to happen. Another series of loonies shooting up the church and school and you could easily see suggestions to do away with the 2nd. This could happen if you lose the political center. The political center thinks that the argument that we need guns to fight a possible government tyranny is so farfetched that they laugh at it.
While we have hideous examples of Nazi German and Bosnia around, most Americans don't think that we will come to this and have to fight our government. Given most of the Nazi stuff is on sale at gun shows - it's kind of a hard argument to make.

THE SAFETY ARGUMENT SELLS. CHLs are part of it. It sells to women.

6. To follow up on the last sentence. WOMEN are the future of the RKBA.
Unless the centrist women are convinced that guns will make them and their families safer, they will support increasing numbers of gun control laws.
The left-over sexist attitudes and correlation of the RKBA with extremist causes turn off this population. Black heliocopter, UN phobia and preparing to fight the government just turns them off. The argument that makes sense is the CHL for self-defense. An argument to carry illegally will go nowhere. They fear lawbreakers - so you are arguing that folks should break the law and carry deadly weapons?

That's brillant.

7. SHALL CARRY LAWS ARE THE ONLY
RECENT PROACTICE SUCCESS FOR THE RKBA.

Defensive actions of holding off some worse gun laws are fine but if you are only on the defense you lose. The CHL laws are an
undeniable success. Shove that in the face of your opponents rather than arguing that we should be lawbreakers.

** The Ultimate Question**

To conclude this little exercise, I want to know if the folks who argue against permit laws and who tell folks to carry illegally
actually do. Every damn day, do you put on an IWB and cocked and locked 1911 and interact with friends, coworkers and police?
Does your significant other do it also? Do you do it in large urban environments like Dallas or just in the outdoors?

Do you do it in the supermarket? Do you take this risk?

Do you also verbally expouse this behavior in a medium other than the anonymity of the Internet? I can tell folks that I carry a gun
for protection and that I have gone through appropriate training and checks. I can tell them why it is a good idea for them to do it.
Can you tell everybody that you are a lawbreaker? So where is your responsible and not bull**** portrayal of the RKBA?

Flame on!