UK Firearms

[Oakleaf]

Very new member - I cannot see this has been covered elsewhere - if I am wrong let me know!

I thought a straight bat commentary on the position in the UK would be helpful to you in the US ( apologies in advance for any nightmares caused).

Firstly, I think the Guru commented - we get the Government we deserve. I acknowledge that UK shooters can be critised for having 'allowed' this state of affairs.

I propose to post a semi dairy over the coming months - this will cover my wife's renewal of her firearms certificate.

In the UK, there are two classes of firearm available - Section 1 - rifled barrel guns ( subject to action, capacity and length restrictions ) and Section 2 - shotguns ( with restrictions ).

This will deal with Section 1.

Self loading centre fire rifles are effectively banned ( Section 5 - dangerous weapons - includes machine guns, explosive rounds, poison bullets etc ).
Hand guns, aside from BlackPowder - Section five
Pump rifles - Section five.

We are left with -

Lever Action rifles, bolt action, single shot, doubles etc and rimfire self loading/ pump.

My wife goes Deer stalking, target shoots as practise and controls vermin/ rabbit shoots. Plinking as you know it is technically not legal in the UK.

She holds - a .22 Ruger 10/22, Anshutz .22, a Remington VS .223, a Tikka 6.5 and a Browning 30-06. The reason for the selection being that we must both hold all guns on our FACs ( Firearms Certificates ). Therefore the rifles used by each of us, must be held on both FACs - hence two .22, two stalking rifles etc. Access must be denied to any non certificate holder. Therefore if Husband shoots and wife does not, she must physically not be able to access the guns and must not know where the cabinet keys are etc. The FAC holder commits a criminal offence if access is allowed - or if weapons are not kept secured to a reasonable level AT ALL TIMES. If Craig Boddington was a UK resident, he would likely have a criminal record and would be prohibited from ever possessing or having access to any firearm ( he noted he had a rifle stolen in one of his books ).

The FAC specifies each gun and exact how and where it may be used. To purchase a further gun, you must demonstrate good reason and a place to use it. You then apply for specific authority to purchase/ acquire. You must also specify how much ammo you wish to hold and how much you wish to purchase at any time - again to be justified. Expanding ammunition and bullets are only permitted if you have authority to shoot deer. Bullets for reloading are treated as live rounds and count toward your holding.

Ammunition and expanding bullet purchases must be entered on your FAC.

I will cover other areas as we go through the renewal process - FACs must be renewed every five years and are administered by the police.

My wife's FAC expires on 20th January, 2002.

DIARY.

18th October 2001.

Receive renewal application from Police. Covering letter requires return within 14 days.

Straight forward form - who, what , when , where , why etc. Including any offences - including speeding and traffic.
This must then be signed by two referees. These must not be family members or other FAC holders. In addition, a waiver is signed giving Police authority to question your GP ( local Doctor ).
Additionally, each referee is given another form - this details what rifles you want to have and asks them to comment on your state of mind, family relationships and standard of weapons handling/ attitude. These forms are not disclosed to the applicant, but must be returned direct to the Police.

Four photos are required - one signed by the applicant and one by each referee.

To save time, it is also suggested that covering evidence be included - such as a letter from the deer stalker ( outfitter ) confirming you have been out with him and are booked to go again. This should include the areas, the size ( eg 3000 acres ), type of quarry and the specific calibres allowed.

To target shoot you must be a member of an Approved Rifle Club - each visit is logged as is the exact rifle used. The club officers are quizzed by the investigating officer.

Each referee is likely to receive a visit from the Police and be closely questioned.

By the time we have drawn together all the relevant details, met with referees and transported about the relevant paperwork it is 3 rd November.

The application is taken to police Headquarters and the fee paid ( £46 ).

We await contact from the enquiry officer who will come out to inspect our security, the rifles and question my wife regards her application.

[yankytrash]

Unholy crap! What a nightmare!

Keep it comin Oakleaf. This should be an interesting read, reminding us Americans to get to the polls and vote responsibly.

[longeyes]

Grimly facinating. Keep it coming.

A good .30-30 lever-action is still kosher?

[Oakleaf]

Longeyes

.30-30 lever actions are still about. However, most common lever action over here are the ones in pistol calibres - .38 spec etc. Interest switched to these when handguns went - common reloading kit etc plus many of the pistol ranges could cover these in carbine format.

Additionally,soft point/ expanding ammo is restricted - only for deer stalkers. Many of the bullets made for tube mags ( ie flat nose etc ) would be prohibited for target shooting use - although lead/ alloy bullets are available, rifles like Marlin always seemed to prefer jacketed rounds.

We had a Winchester 94 in 30-30. However, it required reloads to usually make deer legal MV and ME requirements. No factory listed load would pass muster ( that I knew of at the time we had one ). Consequently, 30-30 is very very rarely turned against deer over here. Image remains that it is an American tradition for deer!

[longeyes]

I admit I was thinking more of home defense. What do people generally favor for their purpose these days?

[longeyes]

Meant to type: "for that purpose."

[Gunter]

It is not fair to fight back against criminals in britain. See case of multiple burglar victim ex-antiques owner bad shotgun marksman serving life.

[Oakleaf]

Good grief!

Be prepared to be intercepted at passport control should you attempt to enter the UK with THAT attitude! ( wit/ humour does not always come across on E messages - just in case - I intend that as a joke )

Not sure if news in the US, but there is an ongoing case regards a Mr Martin. He was in East Anglia ( I think ) and shot dead one of three burglars with his shotgun ( farmer ) - at his remote home.

About twelve months after his MURDER conviction, this was transformed to MANSLAUGHTER - he continues to serve time.

He lived alone - his house has apparently been wrecked in his absence.

I mentioned good reason requirements as part of the FAC process. Defence is not a good reason in the UK. Limited numbers of FACs were issued in Northern Ireland - but as exceptions.

When not in use, firearms are required to be kept in locked steel cabinets - preferably in inaccessible parts of the home. Where possible, key parts - eg the bolt, should be removed and stored securely elsewhere. Ammunition must be locked away in a separate cabinet.

If you had a firearm to hand or had enough notice to lay your hands on one - and then used it; it is highly likely that you would be prosecuted. In the first instance you would breach the terms of your FAC - which specifies exactly what you may use the weapon for.

For example, due to escapes, Boar have started to colonise certain woods in the South. A Deer stalker who disturbs one and is charged may not legally shoot the animal - unless he/she has specific authority to do so. To quote the Guru again - natural selection plays a major role here in terms of common sense versus statute!

You would have to be faced by overwhelming odds and in clear and demonstrable risk of life to use a firearm in such circumstances. In British law, you may use reasonable force to defend yourself if in genuine fear for your life. The test is stringently applied. At the turn of the 20th Century, the English were a nation of Riflemen ( following the tradition of the long bow ). Pubs still abound with names such as Rifleman or Volunteer. This formed the basis of a war time army. WW1 changed that structure - hence the desperate shortage of weapons in 1939.

The notion of 'normal' people having a gun in the house is wholly alien to about 95% of the UK population. Consequently, both the authorities and a potential jury would be very hard to convince that using a firearm was reasonable - in about any circumstance.
Illegal use of firearms rises in prortion with the drug trade here. Thankfully, those outside of the 'business' are rarely drawn in. Home invasions etc are also virtually unheard of. Even firearm enthusiasts conceed that our need over here is much less than that apparent over there. Our police are not routinely armed etc.

Other than on the hypothetical level, few shooters contemplate such a role for their guns.

That said, most of us follow such US discussions with interest.

I hope this has provided useful insight?

[Oakleaf]

Reply was to Longeyes.

I suspect Gunter mentions the same case that I quoted.

[JoshM75]

Oakleaf, good to have you aboard.

I recently saw a BBC documentary called "Blood on the Carpet", It detailed the rise and fall of the "Countryside Alliance" in UK politic's.

There seemed to be a serious divide between the hunting fraternity in relation to tactic's. Traditionalists [fox hunters], with a stay quiet and sort it out with backroom deals vs a new age politically active [Bird Hunters]. The politically active branch lost control of the alliance.

Also there was no mention of uniting the Countryside Alliance with pistol/rifle shooter organizations.

I don't understand the reason for this level of divison , surely its self defeating ?

Assuming Scotland has a higher level of Gun ownership, would further Scottish Devolution possibly help to roll back Gun control laws, originally passed by Westminister ?

Kia Kaha ... Josh

[Oakleaf]

If only Charlton Heston could be persuaded to...

You cut to the centre of a raging debate amongst UK shooters.

The Countryside Alliance really appeared once Fox Hunting came under serious threat. They were very establishment. However, they had a fantastic PR/ Spokeswoman - Janet George. She really knew her stuff and made more progress in getting across a positive public message in a few months than has happened in the years before or since.

For those not aware - In the UK Fox Hunting is your traditional pursuit of a fox by hounds - with riders following the hounds and spectators etc on foot. It is deeply rooted in tradition and perceived as the sport of the upper Classes/ Gentry. In reality - as in all things - those keen on a pastime will find a way - regardless of status.

Hunting in the UK is always taken to mean horse back pursuit. Deer 'hunting' is called stalking etc.

It has been claimed that the Countryside Alliance roped in other country sports to swell numbers etc. Whatever the reasoning, support was massive.

You may recall the 'Poll Tax ' riots in London in the late 1980's - several tens of thousands protested - fairly violently and destructively.

I am proud to say that I attended the Countryside March in London in 1998. Many figures were banded about low end 150,00 and upper end 500,000. The truth lies somewhere between. When we left mid afternoon we passed 17 miles of coaches ( say 30 people per coach? ) queing up the A40 - waiting to get in. The was no violence, no damage and I even witnessed various people in the March picking up litter - I friend who works for the Council claimed we left the place more tidy than before!

The Marchers were united, but each had their own reasons. There were fox hunters, fell packs, rough shooters, stalkers, fly fishermen - the lot. Even target shooters - a group behind us did get rowdy as they passed a group of Policemen - some shouted 'Filth' etc. I was puzzled by the broad smiles on the officers faces - until I heard a Senior officer call - shut up Sgt Brown - you're back on duty Monday - the 'rowdies' were the Metropolitan Police Target shooting club!

Personally I am ambivalent regards fox hunting. As a rifleman I believe a rifle bullet takes some beating for the humane destruction of a predator - which the fox is. I also know that thousands more foxes are taken by rifles than are caught by the hunts. Efficiency is not the whole argument.

The March was a success - if only measured by the number of politicians desperate to align with us. The ultimate compliment was to be accused of being as 'bad' as the NRA of America - a ( according to British Politicians ) notorious organisation!

However, with the perceived threat thought to have been dealt with, the war time spirit etc seemed to fall away. Janet George fell into dispute with her bosses - and with her went the voice of the movement.

We also have the BASC - British Association for Shooting and Conservation. Their aim is to unite sportsmen. Things improve - with painful slowness. They cannot shake a feeling amongst the grass-roots that it's a case of 'jobs for the boys'. I suspect they have acquired considerable skill in influencing decision makers etc. However their internal PR is terrible - the impression gained is that they are forced to try and justify themselves to the members - rather than focussing wider public. If we are to survive we must persuade the public at large to at least accept us, if not support. There is no campaign to match the nation newspaper ads and bill-board campaigns of the LACS and even the RSPB - despite many instances of the Advertising Authorities chastising for mis-leading ads - the damage is done.

Dunblane and Hungerford before it were terrible, terrible events. They were perpetrated by FAC holders. Whilst in each case, the existing law, properly applied, would have removed the legally held guns. However, deep fear was planted in the mind of the public - who would be next to vent a grudge or go mad etc.

My mother died violently. The weapon used was a pair of scissors. I have never for the briefest second felt that those scissors caused her death nor sought to blame them. Sadly, we all know that guns hold an ill-founded fear for most people and remain reviled objects of themselves.

No political person is going to risk alienating a population predisposed to be anti-gun.

Devolution is a whole different issue! However, in respect of the Firearms legislation aspect - the Scottish Parliament only has devolved powers in certain areas - Firearms law remains with London.

I have no figures, but as Scotlands population density is very low and we are essentially rural, the percentage of firearms owners probably is high. However, 80% plus of the population live in the Central Belt - Glasgow to Edinburgh. This a a very much Urban/ Suburban mix - with a 'city dweller' outlook. That is 80% of the voting power ( ignoring proportional representation issues ). The rifle/ shotgun users are spread thinly across the Highlands, Western Isles, Grampians etc.

Sporting use of land is a major income area for Scotland - this is our key point to sell into the politicians. A man out for Red Deer on the hill will have paid £100-£1000 to be there; is likely staying in a Hotel and ( sorry to appear sexist ) likely has wife/girlfriend/mistress shopping in the nearest town as a trade off! Impact on the environment is minimal, income is generated locally and the land is managed. The politician driving by will not see that. He will see several hundred cars = parked by hill walkers or climbers. He will see the brightly dressed walkers on the hill ( as do the Deer! ), he sees the bustling towns like Aviemore - with gift shops etc. The walker pays nothing, he/she may stay locally - but is often a day tripper. Their spend is unlikely to be more than £100 in total.

That is the task for Scotland's sportsmen.

The strong pound has hammered tourism generally. Press reports make the whole UK appear disease ridden. Reception to tourists bringing in a rifle can seem hostile and none of the tourist web-sites really make any mention that you can shoot here. The sporting estates are dying and we face replacement with a sanitized Park. Much is wrong with UK fieldsports and much must change - still we may be doomed. Professional stalkers here tell me that foreign bookings - traditionally 80% of their trade - have vanished.

The deer still need to be managed, but with venison exports on hold - and consequently prices down, the operation largely compounds loss.

Each country has unique sport to offer and the required conduct etc varies greatly. Scottish stalking has a tradition back to Royal patronage in the early 1800's. One of the best professional stalkers ( now sadly deceased ) recounted how the current Prince of Wales invited him stalking ( as the guest ). The Prince ghillied for him the whole day and was most anxious to perform to his perfect satisfaction - that is the essence of it. The relationship between rifle and stalker/ ghillie exists nowhere else in the world.

This can be off-putting. The standards are high - and largely self-imposed. That makes it all the more worthwhile. It has struck me whilst writing this to ask for your help. I am not a sporting agent/ outfitter etc and will not receive any payment ( other than preservation of my sport ).

I ask this - if you ever contemplated or dreamed of coming to Scotland to shoot - do something about it now. If you can find no details direct, let me know and I'll open up another thread/ discuss direct and help sort something out. With the state of things, unless we all start to fly again etc, a certain gentleman will merely have had his cause aided by inaction.

Finally - I am taking a course on how to keep messages brief!

The CA are still active, but all our

[Vladimir_Berkov]

This is really interesting. It is personally astounding to me how much the UK has changed over the last 100 years, or even the last 50 years. The country of today is almost unrecognizable from that of yesteryear, while many areas of the US have barely changed.

Every time I read about the situation in the UK, I am all the more eager to fight for out rights here in America. Even the concept of firearms ownership as a "right" is absent in England. Here we think we have it bad when we can't have a folding stock on our AK-47 semiautomatic rifle with 75-round-drum. Heck, even in California or New Jersey you can own a handgun or centerfire semiauto rifle.

I visit England every summer and like you said many of the people in urban areas regard hunting/stalking as aristocratic, and gunowning as criminal. In fact, when I was 14 I made the big mistake of taking my pocketknife with me when visiting a private school. I only learned afterward that I could have been in major trouble for having it. At home in Texas kids with pocketknives are the rule, and nobody could care less.

[Oleg Volk]

In Minnesota, a pocket knife is considered sufficient to ban a kid from public school. Twenty years ago, rifles in classrooms were acceptable.

I truly hope that enough folks move to rural/unorganized areas and run private schools w/o tax or fed support. What I see in public schools seems to run along them lines of minimum security prisons more than educational institutions. If my kids (once I have them), can't even call their parents at will (no cell phones), then I would prefer to find another solution. Parental fire support should be available as the quality of teachers varies and bad apples stay right in the barrell.

[Oakleaf]

There is a good book - which I do not have to hand, so forgive the spelling.

It is Snake Man and describes Mr ionides the famous African 'adventurer'.

In it he recounts having his desk searched ( pre war ) and there being discovered a catapult, two Webley revolvers and an Adder. The Adder was confiscated and he was punished for it - not the other items!

Only the people en-masse forget. Our history is all around. Most Church yards still have Yew trees - a source for bow wood when Archery practise was mandatory here.

[longeyes]

I can only say I'm glad I've taken that up as well as shooting. Might come in handy down the road.

I'm still in a quandary. May I ask, respectfully, what someone is supposed to do when thugs--and I'm assuming these still exist in the U.K. (I believe I've seen a few on my visits)--choose to attack his home? How much of a drubbing is one expected to take in the interest of Civilization?

I seem to remember Madonna & family having their London flat invaded and burglarized while they were supposedly tucked in "upstairs." Is everyone to count on kinder, gentler brigands?

[Oakleaf]

Thugs? Longeyes - that is no way to describe New Labour.

Violent crime is thankfully rare. The position remains that Common Law ( we have two basis for Law here, Statute - ie made by Parliament and Common - ie established custom ), allows reasonable force.

The test of reasonable lies with the old adage - '... to the man on the Clapham omnibus...' ie the average member of the public. The slant against the firearm comes from the public perception discussed by the various parties above.

Condition Yellow is sufficient to deal with 98% of any problems you may have in the UK. If you have encountered problems in the past you must change your destination - try Edinburgh instead of London etc.

[KSFreeman]

Try telling that Farmer Tony who used reasonable force to terminate a home invasion in England, Oak. Oops, so much for condition yellow getting you though.

UK is a democracy not a republic. You have only the rights only that Parliment allows. The courts, The King's Bench, are sworn to uphold the will of Parliment, not the individual rights (as there are none). There is no right to self-defense in GB by act of Parliment. If attacked, you will submit or you will be prosecuted.

Oak, thanks for the picture of life under the boot there in the UK. Truly Orwellian.

[B9mmHP]

Oakleaf. We know the UK has gone Socialist/Communist.And i`m glad you left things more tidy, and i`m sure glad your group didn`t get roudy and have your free speach silenced like the group behind you.

But what do you want us here in the USofA to do to help? Your people elected the Socialists, its your job to kick thier butts out. We did it here back in the 1700s, it`s your time.

But if you want a Referee I would be happy to jump up to the plate and give all, my permision to own anything they want,even that nasty handgun permit.

See if you can`t pick up some of those IRA weapons they are disposing of.

[JoshM75]

Oak: sorry to read about your mother.

Long posts about Scotland are fine by me. Heck, check out the lengths on the 9mm/.45, Glock/1911 threads.

The 1688 English Bill of Rights has a armed self defence provision for Protestants, I'm guessing Catholics already had this right. Never heard of a pro gun appeal under this founding legislation though ?

I heard that New Labor was apparently working to undermine Habeas Corpus [1679], so maybe they'll ditch the Bill of Rights to.

Hard to run Socialist nations with annoying Ancient texts with outdated concepts like Freedom, Justice, Self defence, etc.

KSFreeman is right though, Separation of Powers and Judicial independence is a joke under the Westminister system, especially in comparison to the U.S. Constitutional Republic. New Zealand has a modified Parliamentary democracy based heavily on Westminister.

If things get worse, you could try the "Edinburgh of the South", Dunedin, NZ. Home of the "Kilted Kiwis" with better Gun laws.

Kia Kaha

[Cain R]

Wow, our socialist obvioulsy took the UK version of gun control and watered it down slightly. Here in Canada the laws are virtually word for word locked storage for firearms, legal terms, everything but immediate confiscation. Hmmm, wonder if the same UN draft got used by two different states?

I mean we even called our firearms licenses the same, FAC Firearms Acquisition Certificate. Guess now they're call, Possesion Authorization Licenses.:barf:

[MeekAndMild]

Hmmm, wonder if the same UN draft got used by two different states?

Cain, FWIW the US 1968 Gun Control Act was patterned after the Nazi law. I would suspect so was the Brit's but haven't read their law. You can order a translation of the Nazi law at the Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership website.

[Oakleaf]

It's the Queens Bench at present!

However, Prince William is a keen stalker - and appears more ready to stand publicly by his interest than HRH Charles.

The reasonable force provision does allow self defence, but you know us Brits - for the most part it would be considered impolite!.

Tony Martin is an ongoing matter. By the standards of most US States, I do not think there would have been a problem. Position here already covered and is an arguable point.

He probably never read Mas Ayoob et al, but if he had Condition Yellow would have either placed the property in a state to deter the unwelcome visit, perhaps prevented rumours of apparent wealth - which caused the burgulars to travel out to him, allowed application of over whelming tactical superiority - make surrender more likely etc. Hence diverting the need for sudden fear and the fateful shot (s)*

Defence claims he was surprised on a stairway and in mortal fear opened fire. Prosecution (thus far successful) claim he heard them and lay in wait by the stairs, opening fire repeatedly without warning.

[Bud Helms]

Oakleaf,

Welcome to TFL. Please visit often.

I watched the ceremonies, during mid-summer 2000, celebrating the opening of the independent Scottish Parliament and the "independence" of Scotland from Westminster. Devolution of that tie is welcome, however light.

I was struck by the impression, while watching the parade of the provinces, that the program was taken straight from Beijing, minus the military hardware display. Repetitive flags and banners, representing nothing specific except a "celebration", and cookie cutter children's groups complete with chaperones, one after the other. I was hoping for some old fashioned partisan representation, replete with prideful clan banners and pipe bands one after the other. No such luck. (And no offense intended.)

A couple of lines jumped out to me as I read your post. ...

" I mentioned good reason requirements as part of the FAC process. Defence is not a good reason in the UK. "

" Devolution is a whole different issue! However, in respect of the Firearms legislation aspect - the Scottish Parliament only has devolved powers in certain areas - Firearms law remains with London. "

Damn! We'll keep you and yours in our prayers. Keep the Diary coming from "behind the lines". Thanks.

[Gunter]

I was a UK resident until some 25 years back, when it was still PC for boys to go to old WWII firing ranges and dig up old bullets.

A friend had a replica browning pistol and another model I don't remember (made of low grade die cast metal, with blocked barrel, but real mag action and snap caps).

The grammar school had a number of military cadets and a rifle range for training.

Scotland for stalking doesn't sound so bad; cost estimate?

[Gunter]

just remembered: the "separate storage of gun and ammo" is what the socialists here in Austria dream about (and not so few think it is the law here).